RPGs that you feel trip over their own cool ideas

[Micah Sweet]

Ehh..... more like if 4e and PBTA had a baby. Is it a crunchy game? yes, but not as much as Pathfinder 2e or GURPS. is it narrative-focused? eh, we need to define that term better. it's got tons of narrative-initiated actions and rules, from its PBTA roots. But it also has lots of explicit effect mechanics.

what is narrative ? because if you asked me, 2nd AD&D could be narrative focused compared to 3e in may ways.
is narrative focused "player states what they want and we roll spicy die to see what happens?" = that does not help us, because that's how Persuasion works in D&D ... so again... what iz?

Are we just talking about character positions in combat? i guess... but that is hardly a good description of a whole rpg ...

Hilarious. It's inspired by two games I never really liked for different reasons.

 

[Umbran]

Hilarious. It's inspired by two games I never really liked for different reasons.

So, maybe step back from that?

A third person made a comparison. That does not equate to a statement from the authors of what inspired them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, maybe step back from that?

A third person made a comparison. That does not equate to a statement from the authors of what inspired them.

Step back from having that opinion?

I've read a good bit about Draw Steel here and elsewhere. I believe it is inspired by 4e, much like a lot of the stuff from that author.

 

[Umbran]

Step back from having that opinion?

I've read a good bit about Draw Steel here and elsewhere. I believe it is inspired by 4e, much like a lot of the stuff from that author.

If I told you why you thought or did a thing, you'd complain that I was being rude.

So, the Golden Rule applies. Don't do to the author of a game what isn't okay to do to you.

If Colville can be quoted saying that was an inspiration, that's cool. Assigning it to him is presumption, especially when the guy is still around to ask.

And, sometimes that attribution is weak sauce. Folks claim Draw Steel is inspired by PbtA because it had grades of success. I am sorry to tell everyone, but grades of success have been around since at least TSR's Marvel Super Heroes (aka "FASERIP"). It is also seen in Fate, and tons of other games predating and not related to PbtA.

 

[zakael19]

Draw Streel! is intended to play through GM (Director) fronted adventures filled with “cinematic” action. The mechanics are all designed to facilitate that. It’s a pretty conventionally positioned game growing directly out of 4e’s ethos, and not written in any way as a collaborative narrative focused thing.

 

[mamba]

If Colville can be quoted saying that was an inspiration, that's cool. Assigning it to him is presumption, especially when the guy is still around to ask.

Matt frequently mentions that he likes 4e, so that part is pretty much a given, albeit more in design goals than mechanics.

I don’t think PbtA was inspiration at all however, they just ended up having a similar tiered result mechanic after having a pretty extensive and open ended research into what mechanics support their goals the best.

 

[Tigris]

So, maybe step back from that?

A third person made a comparison. That does not equate to a statement from the authors of what inspired them.

What? Sorry why would one trust the author? Thats not just naive its actively misleading/harmful in some cases.

What the author say is in the end just marketing and must be taken as that and not as the truth.


It makes a lot more sense to analyse the systems and compare the facts (like to which mechanics they are similar) than listening to marketing.



Also its not controversial at all that pretty much every tactical rpg, which draw steel is, is inspired by 4e. Similar most tactical RPGs which have a clear combat /non combat split use inspiration from PbtA (directly or indirectly over FitD) for the non combat part.


Even AI when asked says:

"Draw Steel (MCDM's upcoming TTRPG) blends 4th Edition D&D tactical combat with modern indie, narrative-driven PbtA (Powered by the Apocalypse) and FitD (Forged in the Dark) influences. Key inspirations include trinary "success/partial/fail" outcomes on dice rolls, cinematic montage rules for non-combat, and a focus on tactical, character-driven heroism."

 

[RenleyRenfield]

IMHO, there is no way you get 15 years into rpg games and are not influenced directly by PBTA when your game literally
uses 6-, 7-9, 10+ results. That's not 'grades of success' or 'ideas from faserip' = that's 100% PBTA design language. Also Colville mentions directly in his youtube vid on how we likes 2d6+ normalized rules for damage and not for narrative social rolls. Sounds like PBTA dna to me...

Regardless, I think its GREAT that Draw Steel did all that it did, and I think it did a great job at making a system that clearly uses ideas from 4e and PBTA. It's a fun game, great combat, and crunchy in fun ways. I see all kinds of value in saying to players looking into it "it has aspects of a few different game systems, and it does what it does with those ideas very well." It also is good as it helps pbta peeps chill a little about the nature of a "combat heavy game about fighting monsters"

Draw Steel is good. my advice, Go play it

 

[Fenris-77]

Do we have a count on how often Rifts has been mentioned as a game that trips over its own cool ideas?

 

[mamba]

IMHO, there is no way you get 15 years into rpg games and are not influenced directly by PBTA when your game literally
uses 6-, 7-9, 10+ results. That's not 'grades of success' or 'ideas from faserip' = that's 100% PBTA design language. Also Colville mentions directly in his youtube vid on how we likes 2d6+ normalized rules for damage and not for narrative social rolls. Sounds like PBTA dna to me...

and yet they arrived at using 2d6 at over a year of trying different things, custom dice, not d6s, … so it is not a rip off, it just happened to end up in a similar spot in some regard (granularity is also different than for much of PbtA)