Why I Hate Skills

[VHawkwinter]

I personally refuse to acknowledge a combat round is exactly 6 or however many seconds they say it is, on the subject. It's all abstract as far as I'm concerned.

It makes more sense if it's simultaneous initiative, certainly. But I think even just "approximately 6 seconds" works. If one round is 5 seconds and another is 7, that's alright. Just give me reasonable approximations.

I am now leaning toward "Talking is a free action"? Sure. You can have 6 seconds of speech (or some approximation thereof, maybe like 4 sentences?) To communicate with the other characters in the round whenever you'd like. That's not the 20 minutes of strategising each turn that some players have done in games I've been in. A friend has mentioned it makes their combats move so much faster, and glacially slow combat is one of the worst parts of most TTRPGs I've played.

 

[VHawkwinter]

I mean, it's meta in that it's not part of the game world, but it's not meta in that it is a game element that is representative of something in the game world.

Right, meta in the "you can't act on this information as though it makes sense to your characters, unless it's like an order of the stick world where all the mechanics exist in the world and every NPC understands them how they work" sense. Like rages per day, where there is no logical inworld explanation why it affects nothing else and acts like ammo for this one very specific ability.

The important element of this, whether for dungeon crawling or adapted in some way for other activities, is that it is a thing that can be understood and measured as a game element. A turn means these specific things... searching a room, a long rest, a random encounter check, etc.

and if each of those things takes an explicit quantity of inworld time instead? For your examples: Say 1 minute per square foot; 8 hours; 2 hours in the wilderness or 10 minutes in public in town during the day, possibly modified in major cities, or reduced at nighttime?

Time is mutable in an RPG. Sometimes days or even years of in game time can pass in seconds of actual time. Other times, a 6-second round of combat can take 15 minutes of actual play time. Time's inconsistent for RPGs.

Granted. Though if there are no flashbacks or rewinds that may not be an issue.

How much time does a turn or equivalent unit actually take for the characters? That's situational. We can decide that depending on the fictional circumstances. The important thing... the thing the players need to know, is how it will impact play.

But if they know how long each task takes, and can figure out the intervals for recurring checks like random encounters, is there a need to make all these random things be modified to take the same amount of time (the "dungeon turn")? If yes, why?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Right, meta in the "you can't act on this information as though it makes sense to your characters, unless it's like an order of the stick world where all the mechanics exist in the world and every NPC understands them how they work" sense. Like rages per day, where there is no logical inworld explanation why it affects nothing else and acts like ammo for this one very specific ability.

Well, I think things like physical abilities that work x times per day and the like still represent something that the characters are aware of... some effort or inner reserve or similar... so I don't agree with your assessment in that sense.

But even if I did, what we're talking about isn't the same. We're talking about a game element... a unit of play called a turn, or something similar... that corresponds to time in the game world. The characters are absolutely aware of time in their world. So I don't think it's meta in that sense, at all.

and if each of those things takes an explicit quantity of inworld time instead? For your examples: Say 1 minute per square foot; 8 hours; 2 hours in the wilderness or 10 minutes in public in town during the day, possibly modified in major cities, or reduced at nighttime?

My post should have said "short rest" as one of the options rather than "long rest".

I think what we're talking about are comparable things from a time perspective. The kinds of things characters will do in a dungeon or in a city or what have you. I think there comes a point where you do have to zoom out to the day... prolonged journeys make sense to do that. But when we're interested in tracking time in some way that's meaningful to play, it's a good idea to have a game mechanic to do that.

And you can always make adjustments to the mechanics as needed. This room is so big and filled with items it will take two turns to search. Or this area is far more dangerous, we roll twice for random encounters per turn here. And so on.

Granted. Though if there are no flashbacks or rewinds that may not be an issue.

But if they know how long each task takes, and can figure out the intervals for recurring checks like random encounters, is there a need to make all these random things be modified to take the same amount of time (the "dungeon turn")? If yes, why?

No, they don't take the same amount of time. They can take whatever amount you think makes sense. But for game purposes, you call that time a turn. For the characters, sure... 13 and a half minutes may pass. For the players, it's a turn... which means they can search the room for treasure, but risk a random encounter. Can one turn in a dungeon be 10 minutes and then one in some other location be 18? Sure, why not?

 

[VHawkwinter]

Well, I think things like physical abilities that work x times per day and the like still represent something that the characters are aware of... some effort or inner reserve or similar... so I don't agree with your assessment in that sense.

K think that for spell slots, but that's specifically because of the in-world explanation for how they're filled that a friend pointed me to in the 2e PHB that justifies them in-fiction. Most of the weird ability resource pools have nothing like that justifying what otherwise looks a lot like nonsense. But alright, YMMV.

But even if I did, what we're talking about isn't the same. We're talking about a game element... a unit of play called a turn, or something similar... that corresponds to time in the game world. The characters are absolutely aware of time in their world. So I don't think it's meta in that sense, at all.

(I answered this part last) Alright. Given the context of the rest of your post where you're saying the tasks in fiction are all the same length of time, this makes more sense. I was not assuming a fixed list of tasks of equal time commitment.

My post should have said "short rest" as one of the options rather than "long rest".

Noted.

I think what we're talking about are comparable things from a time perspective. The kinds of things characters will do in a dungeon or in a city or what have you.

I don't think I have (or have played in a game that has) such a list of same-time tasks, for acts outside of combat.

I think there comes a point where you do have to zoom out to the day... prolonged journeys make sense to do that. But when we're interested in tracking time in some way that's meaningful to play, it's a good idea to have a game mechanic to do that.

And you don't think having 24x4 (96) 15 minute checkboxes and checking them off across the day, with a pile of actions that all take different quantities of time, would fit that definition? (Or zooming out and spending awake hours per week during downtime).

And you can always make adjustments to the mechanics as needed. This room is so big and filled with items it will take two turns to search. Or this area is far more dangerous, we roll twice for random encounters per turn here. And so on.

No, they don't take the same amount of time. They can take whatever amount you think makes sense. But for game purposes, you call that time a turn.

well if the amounts of time are all different, one could be 1 turn, another might be 1/4 of a turn, another 1.5 turns, etc. That's what all different times would mean. If it takes longer to do one thing than another, it's a bigger time commitment. Different relative times per-task.

For the characters, sure... 13 and a half minutes may pass. For the players, it's a turn... which means they can search the room for treasure, but risk a random encounter. Can one turn in a dungeon be 10 minutes and then one in some other location be 18? Sure, why not?

This seems to have been a misunderstanding of what I meant. I meant each task has a different time. Not in one location the time for all tasks is changed the same way.

we definitely play very different games, but I think at the fundamental level we are in agreement.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm imagining a seasoned adventurer with an inquisitive mind carefully gathering data, through years spent exploring dungeons. "You know what's strange...the more quickly we do things like search rooms and open chests, the more frequently monsters wander in on us. When we slow down and take longer, they come less frequently. Weird, huh?"

 

[VHawkwinter]

I'm imagining a seasoned adventurer with an inquisitive mind carefully gathering data, through years spent exploring dungeons. "You know what's strange...the more quickly we do things like search rooms and open chests, the more frequently monsters wander in on us. When we slow down and take longer, they come less frequently. Weird, huh?"

Whereas I allow you to do tasks faster for a DC increase, so a bigger bonus means being able to either do harder tasks or do easier tasks faster - and if the random encounters are at a fixed time interval, you could absolutely get more done between random encounter checks.

 

[Pedantic]

Whereas I allow you to do tasks faster for a DC increase, so a bigger bonus means being able to either do harder tasks or do easier tasks faster - and if the random encounters are at a fixed time interval, you could absolutely get more done between random encounter checks.

You're basically just working around a smaller atom of actions, right? Like, "1 action" is a useful generic label, but you can express everything in minutes just fine. Sounds like potentially a lot more design work.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Whereas I allow you to do tasks faster for a DC increase, so a bigger bonus means being able to either do harder tasks or do easier tasks faster - and if the random encounters are at a fixed time interval, you could absolutely get more done between random encounter checks.

Yeah...I was just making a joke about the idea of characters becoming aware (through careful statistical analysis) of meta time measurement. I like nerdy things like that.

 

[VHawkwinter]

Yeah...I was just making a joke about the idea of characters becoming aware (through careful statistical analysis) of meta time measurement. I like nerdy things like that.

Oh. I understood it. I was agreeing and saying it would bug me as a player, which is why I don't do it that way. But yes, it could make for an amusing bit in a comic.

 

[VHawkwinter]

You're basically just working around a smaller atom of actions, right? Like, "1 action" is a useful generic label, but you can express everything in minutes just fine. Sounds like potentially a lot more design work.

In Realm of Stars I have 2-action combat turns in a 6 second round, based on a redesigned 3.0 combat with some bits from other OGL systems and a bunch of original work, but with special training you can squeeze in a third action of certain types (often a basic movement). The "default" for a check is that it takes one action (2-3s). That's as fast as you're likely to get. Outside of combat usable abilities, everything is generally expressed in minutes or hours, and if you want to do them faster, there are guidelines to raise the DC for faster execution. Like if you're doing library research, you're not rolling (or taking 10) every 3 seconds. And if you're working a job, you roll several times per day to determine how you did, but it's again not every 3 seconds. Usually outside combat you will have the option to take 10 unless you're trying to rush or don't have the skill to take 10.

A lot of it is from me trying to make it make sense in world and have decent gameplay as well. Pricing I have largely reworked around Labour and Material prices, and labour prices are based on a bunch of calculations relative to bare minimum subsistence survival costs. I'm not quite as worried about it being too much for people to remember, because I'm building it as a Mobile and PC app. The plan is to make the computer remember a lot of that stuff. You can still read the documents, but ideally the plan longterm: if you the player don't recall, your character sheet will recall for you. It will likely be a bit more under-the-hood complexity than 3.X, but less than GURPS 4, and probably also less than Shadowrun 4 (almost certainly better organised than SR4, I remember it being hard to find stuff in that game).

Anyway - out of combat, so far I am expressing things just in real world units of time, while having time be a tracked resource throught the day, or throughout weeks of downtime (the downtime loop is a core part of gameplay and is how you advance your character, amongst other things, but downtime is normally tracking hours per week, not seconds). I hadn't considered any potential need for an abstract noncombat time unit before this thread. But it definitely has me thinking about such topics now.