D&D 5E (2024) Conjure Minor Elemental Real in Game Thoughts. S Tier? Review So ENworld can Tell Me I'm Wrong.

[FrogReaver]

I would disagree with this. It can be very useful, it is just highly situational.

I have seen it used very effectively in play, just not often.

The primary question seems to be opportunity cost. I don't doubt it can feel effective in some circumstances, the question in my mind is whether something else that you probably have access to already would have been even more effective, with a bit of nuance around how much more effective it would need to be in any situation to even deserve a mention since you already agree it's highly situational. Your sentiment here doesn't address that at all.

 

[ECMO3]

The primary question seems to be opportunity cost. I don't doubt it can feel effective in some circumstances, the question in my mind is whether something else that you probably have access to already would have been even more effective, with a bit of nuance around how much more effective it would need to be in any situation to even deserve a mention since you already agree it's highly situational. Your sentiment here doesn't address that at all.

I would agree, usually something else is better. This is one reason why it is situational. Another big issue is the extremely limited range.

I am playing an Eldritch Knight 11/Eldritch Elemental Eye Warlock 8 who has it. That character also has a 23 Charisma, plate+2, shield spell, Sanctuary spell, Constitution proficiency, Warcaster and she typically fights with a club and scimitar getting a base 4 attacks a round. With action surge I can usually attack with CME right out of the gate the round I cast it.

That is on a PC designed to be in melee primarily and optimized to be hard to damage, maintain concentration when damaged and make a lot of attacks. Even with all this it is still situational, over the course of the combat I still end up making ranged attacks where I am not getting the bonus or I need to do something else (like cast a different spell).

The last fight I popped it on, I already had Fire Shield running and first round of combat I went with CME and killed the guy next to me with Green Flame Blade, but I was out of range for anybody else, so I just used my Longbow twice. After my turn the bad guys cast Dispel Magic at 3rd level, rolled high enough to cancel the CME but not the Fire Shield. So I got 2d8+6 damage out of a 4th level warlock slot (the extra +6 comes from a Warlock subclass feature).

 

[Silam]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Sounds reasonable overall, but I wanted to dig deeper into this part:

The Eberron CME.

Any class on Eberron can get CME via an origin feat and potent Dragonmark. And you can cast a lvl 4 or 5 one as a short rest. This opens it up to better options such as dual wielders, monks, Sorcerers and Warlocks acquiring it early eg level 7 or 8 and a free cast of CME 1/short rest. Action surging fighter (dual wielding) proficient in con saves and indomitable....... Frequency goes up, opportunity cost goes down. You can also cast CME and action surge or cast it and flurry of blows.

(Emphasis mine)

You don’t actually need Eberron’s Mark of Storm and PDM feat pair to pull this off… you could simply multi-class. Is there any reason for a gish (BS, VB, etc) to not take at least 2 levels of Fighter? Or maybe that veers into WRTC territory from your point of view.

But if we take for granted that any Bladesinger is a bit odd as a straight Wizard and really comes into its own with the catalyst of 2 Fighter levels, then a lot of the concerns melt away… Action Surge once / short rest is likely enough times per day to be used every time you need it, given the number of slots capable casting / upcasting CME (at least for a while).

Then maybe the discussion devolves into: why is 2 levels of Fighter so damn strong for a gish? But that’s off-topic if we care to discuss CME …

 

[Zardnaar]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Sounds reasonable overall, but I wanted to dig deeper into this part:


(Emphasis mine)

You don’t actually need Eberron’s Mark of Storm and PDM feat pair to pull this off… you could simply multi-class. Is there any reason for a gish (BS, VB, etc) to not take at least 2 levels of Fighter? Or maybe that veers into WRTC territory from your point of view.

But if we take for granted that any Bladesinger is a bit odd as a straight Wizard and really comes into its own with the catalyst of 2 Fighter levels, then a lot of the concerns melt away… Action Surge once / short rest is likely enough times per day to be used every time you need it, given the number of slots capable casting / upcasting CME (at least for a while).

Then maybe the discussion devolves into: why is 2 levels of Fighter so damn strong for a gish? But that’s off-topic if we care to discuss CME …

The two level dip hurts a lot in a real game.

Valor bards already have a delayed second attack. Level 6 instead of 5.

Two levels of fighter kicks that back to level 8. Thats 3 levels of 1 attack via attack action you miss out on. You also give up two caster levels so youre a worse bard.
. Instead of CME at 10 its now 12.

So yeah good idea if you parachute into a level 12 game. Crap otherwise youre a bard warrior, gosh and spellcaster.

 

[Silam]

The two level dip hurts a lot in a real game.

Valor bards already have a delayed second attack. Level 6 instead of 5.

Two levels of fighter kicks that back to level 8. Thats 3 levels of 1 attack via attack action you miss out on. You also give up two caster levels so youre a worse bard.
. Instead of CME at 10 its now 12.

So yeah good idea if you parachute into a level 12 game. Crap otherwise youre a bard warrior, gosh and spellcaster.

I hear you… but not sure if the concern is overblown…

If you care for numbers of attacks in early levels (which is totally fine if you do, why not!) then you could consider that a single level of fighter grants you Nick, effectively giving you two attacks per Attack Action from level 1. Why wait until level 6 as a Valor Bard, when you could have it at level 1 as a Fighter? Is the Fighter/VB late to getting 2 attacks or the other way around?

As for delaying Magical Secrets… I don’t know if I have sympathy for that. To me this class feature stinks and feels like cheating … you wanted Wizard spells but without putting in the 10000 hours to be a real Wizard? Well, deal with it son, I don’t care if you get your toys at 10th or 12th level… you could have been a Wizard if you wanted them sooner!

 

[Zardnaar]

I reread the rules on casting with hands full.
Valor bard cant use any weapon they like as a focus.

Without warcaster its iffy. With warcaster it doesnt matter.

I hear you… but not sure if the concern is overblown…

If you care for numbers of attacks in early levels (which is totally fine if you do, why not!) then you could consider that a single level of fighter grants you Nick, effectively giving you two attacks per Attack Action from level 1. Why wait until level 6 as a Valor Bard, when you could have it at level 1 as a Fighter? Is the Fighter/VB late to getting 2 attacks or the other way around?

As for delaying Magical Secrets… I don’t know if I have sympathy for that. To me this class feature stinks and feels like cheating … you wanted Wizard spells but without putting in the 10000 hours to be a real Wizard? Well, deal with it son, I don’t care if you get your toys at 10th or 12th level… you could have been a Wizard if you wanted them sooner!

You're still giving up an attack.

Warrior types getting 3 at 5th, single class VB can turn bonus action and lvl 7 they can pick up fount of moonlight. 3 attacks 2d6 radiant with warcaster.

Still a bad Warrior, bad valor bard and bad spellcaster.

Youre B tier at best and there's S tier better options. Paladins. Clerics, Druids.

 

[Silam]

Without warcaster its iffy. With warcaster it doesnt matter.

For sure. War Caster is the special sauce we want on every recipe

You're still giving up an attack.

Warrior types getting 3 at 5th, single class VB can turn bonus action and lvl 7 they can pick up fount of moonlight. 3 attacks 2d6 radiant with warcaster.

That feels like moving the goalposts, but perhaps in a way that doesn’t really matter all that much …

The Bonus Action muddies the water… yes, the Bard could use it and attain the same number of attacks as the Fighter with Nick who isn’t using their BA… but then we could say "if the Fighter took DW, then they could also use their BA and have one more attack again". It would also be true, but it’s an escalation of resources, and not an apples-to-apples comparison. We went from comparing number of attacks per AA across two builds to comparing number of attacks per AA for build 1 vs per AA+BA for build 2, and then jumped to number of attacks per BA+AA for build 3 (which BTW also costs one more feat). It’s fine to lay out all our cards on the table and mention all the options, but at some point we also have to lock down the parameters otherwise we’re continuously expanding the scope of what each build spends to outdo the other …

Anyhow…

Still a bad Warrior, bad valor bard and bad spellcaster.

Youre B tier at best and there's S tier better options. Paladins. Clerics, Druids.

I will certainly shake hands on the Bard being subpar. That, in a sense, is probably how it should be. (Take that, Bard lovers …)

I’m not convinced about the Bladesinger though… a Fighter 2 (or more!) / Bladesinger X build seems quite reasonable to me…

 

[Zardnaar]

For sure. War Caster is the special sauce we want on every recipe



That feels like moving the goalposts, but perhaps in a way that doesn’t really matter all that much …

The Bonus Action muddies the water… yes, the Bard could use it and attain the same number of attacks as the Fighter with Nick who isn’t using their BA… but then we could say "if the Fighter took DW, then they could also use their BA and have one more attack again". It would also be true, but it’s an escalation of resources, and not an apples-to-apples comparison. We went from comparing number of attacks per AA across two builds to comparing number of attacks per AA for build 1 vs per AA+BA for build 2, and then jumped to number of attacks per BA+AA for build 3 (which BTW also costs one more feat). It’s fine to lay out all our cards on the table and mention all the options, but at some point we also have to lock down the parameters otherwise we’re continuously expanding the scope of what each build spends to outdo the other …

Anyhow…



I will certainly shake hands on the Bard being subpar. That, in a sense, is probably how it should be. (Take that, Bard lovers …)

I’m not convinced about the Bladesinger though… a Fighter 2 (or more!) / Bladesinger X build seems quite reasonable to me…

Im thinking early ranger dip in bladesinger.

Fighter could also work.

Bladesinger you need CME or 5.0 material or don't bother. If its 5MWD could be worth it otherwise mix in weapon attacks and scorching ray/spellfire flare.

 

[Silam]

Im thinking early ranger dip in bladesinger.

Fighter could also work.

Bladesinger you need CME or 5.0 material or don't bother. If its 5MWD could be worth it otherwise mix in weapon attacks and scorching ray/spellfire flare.

Ranger could be fine. HM is nice at low levels, but probably not ideal longer-term… the Fighter overall has better low-level abilities though, beyond just Weapon Mastery, I find. Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge are all useful…

Also, why wait until CME comes online, would you not consider Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud? (though that is 5.0, as you pointed out…)

 

[Zardnaar]

Ranger could be fine. HM is nice at low levels, but probably not ideal longer-term… the Fighter overall has better low-level abilities though, beyond just Weapon Mastery, I find. Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge are all useful…

Also, why wait until CME comes online, would you not consider Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud? (though that is 5.0, as you pointed out…)

Pure 5.5 yeah. 5.0 shadow blade and spirit shroud would be picked.

Hunters mark fills a nice hole so inclined to do that.