D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[Reynard]

This has come up as a side discussion in a few threads, so I wanted to start a dedicated thread to dig into the subject. Note that I don't think there is a hige difference between how guns would work in 5E 2014 vs 2024, so the 2014 tag is just to try and limit this discussion to various 5E versions of the game and rules.

Anyway -- it seems some people have strong opinions about the way 5E is built with relation to melee vs ranged combat, and especially with regards to the viability of firearms. I honestly do not understand the arguments. 5E is not particularly "melee locked" in my opinion. Lots of classes have access to spammable ranged attacks and perform fine. In addition, I do not think firearms should be treated as a different class of weapon from arrows or eldritch blasts. Nothing in 5E is remotely realistic or simulationist, so why would we try and make firearms (or lazer, mazer or plasma cannons) "realistic"?

the 5E engine is primarily focused on action adventure combat with Hollywood physics and John McClane style protagonists who get bloody but rarely fall down. Guns fit fine into that paradigm.

The sniper rifle argument is an interesting one, though: what do you do when your PCs want to use super long range, high caliber weapons to take out their targets instead of risking themselves? My answer is simple: don't put those things in the game. Don't give the players a "finger of death" gun if you don't want them to use it. But I know that will be unsatisfying to some folks.

So now that I have said my piece (peace?), what do you think? Do you think guns are a problem in the 5E rules? Why, or why not? Have you played a contemporary or sci-fi game with the 5E rules? If so, how did guns impact play?

 

[Plaguescarred]

I never liked firearms in my D&D, besides few exception, such as when playing in EBERRON or other campaign where they expressely can be found, they don't exist.

 

[sevenbastard]

what do you do when your PCs want to use super long range, high caliber weapons to take out their targets instead of risking themselves

A lot of things besides a gun can be used to accomplish the same thing.

Poison and fire are great for taking out enemies without getting close.

Dumping oil down a hole and lighting it, spiking the wine at the bandits tavern, leaving a posion corpse for the troublesome owl bear, using shape change to do bombing runs, the necklace of fireball and your familiar, just animating undead and sending them into fight, the list goes on.

Honest access to blackpowder as an explosive is more troublesome than the actual guns. Especially when you can combine blackpowder and magic.

Fill some skeletons rib cage with a barrel bomb and send them in mass toward the enemy.

RPGs are always going to have ways for clever players to avoid a straight up fight with or without guns. The question is if that is a bug or a feature for your favored playstyle.

 

[payn]

This has come up as a side discussion in a few threads, so I wanted to start a dedicated thread to dig into the subject. Note that I don't think there is a hige difference between how guns would work in 5E 2014 vs 2024, so the 2014 tag is just to try and limit this discussion to various 5E versions of the game and rules.

Anyway -- it seems some people have strong opinions about the way 5E is built with relation to melee vs ranged combat, and especially with regards to the viability of firearms. I honestly do not understand the arguments. 5E is not particularly "melee locked" in my opinion. Lots of classes have access to spammable ranged attacks and perform fine. In addition, I do not think firearms should be treated as a different class of weapon from arrows or eldritch blasts. Nothing in 5E is remotely realistic or simulationist, so why would we try and make firearms (or lazer, mazer or plasma cannons) "realistic"?

the 5E engine is primarily focused on action adventure combat with Hollywood physics and John McClane style protagonists who get bloody but rarely fall down. Guns fit fine into that paradigm.

The sniper rifle argument is an interesting one, though: what do you do when your PCs want to use super long range, high caliber weapons to take out their targets instead of risking themselves? My answer is simple: don't put those things in the game. Don't give the players a "finger of death" gun if you don't want them to use it. But I know that will be unsatisfying to some folks

There is no sniper crossbow or longbow in 5E, so I dont see the need to make a sniper firearm exception. You nailed it, the game isnt a reality sim and folks shouldnt view firearms outside of the existing ruleset. Unless, of course, you are playing a modern military reskin of 5E. In that case, the reskin rule set should account for modern firearms.

So now that I have said my piece (peace?), what do you think? Do you think guns are a problem in the 5E rules? Why, or why not? Have you played a contemporary or sci-fi game with the 5E rules? If so, how did guns impact play?

It's not a problem unless you have the "Katana" mindset. That means the perspective is that firearms are so incredibly more awesome than any other fantasy weapon, they must be leagues better. One shot pistols and muskets are not good enough; players demand six-shooters and rifles with magazines and/or drums with hundreds of rounds. Damage must be 10X ordinary weapons, etc..

I have played a cyberpunk reskin of 5E Carbon 2185. It was fine. The paradigm was shifted from 75% roughly melee to ranged combat instead. Pistols, rifles, etc.. were given mechanical stats but worked largely as they do in classic 5E.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If players want to snipe their enemies from long range... that tells me what kind of character stories they are interested in. Thus I will create scenarios and situations that lean towards what they are interested in, rather than force them to engage in melee combat just because that is what I "think" the Dungeons & Dragons tactical miniatures board game is meant to be about.

It's no different to me than a table where all the players choose characters and species with darkvision. That tells me they are uninterested in the whole "monsters coming out of the darkness to surprise the party" scenario, so why should I try and force them to encounter it? Just because that's what I "believe" D&D is supposed to be about? Not worth any of our times.

 

[Umbran]

So now that I have said my piece (peace?), what do you think? Do you think guns are a problem in the 5E rules? Why, or why not? Have you played a contemporary or sci-fi game with the 5E rules? If so, how did guns impact play?

I don't usually include firearms in my D&D games, but that's for purely aesthetic and thematic reasons.

If I do include them, players will be made aware that their performance will be in line with other weapons in the game, simply for balance reasons.

I don't play or run contemporary games on the 5e engine - I've always gone to other rulesets for contemporary or sci-fi play.

 

[Plaguescarred]

IMHO 5E has pretty long range weapons already that can fire up to 600 feet away but most combat encounters occur in a much shorter range than that making those rarely be that effective. But with proper layout they can shine for sure.

 

[Tonguez]

yeah personally Ive never seen any reason why a martial proficiency gun had to be treated differently to a wand of fireballs

 

[ZeshinX]

I don't find them a problem in 5e, but then, I don't allow firearms of any kind in games I run, nor do I play in D&D games that allow them. I like my medieval fantasy (which is how I choose to enjoy D&D) to be medieval and the visualization of firearms (and gunpowder in general) completely destroys my ability to enjoy the game (regardless of any actual historical precedent and/or proof of their existence in medieval periods/places in our world).

I've played various RPGs with more contemporary or sci-fi settings in my 30+ years playing RPGs (table top, video game, etc), and while I've had fun and found little (mechanical) issues with firearms/gun-like weapons in other systems, I've found I vastly prefer medieval fantasy.

So firearms have never been a functional issue for me in D&D simply because I avoid them altogether. Not sure if that really helps with the OP's questions...but figured I'd contribute that for whatever it may be worth.

 

[Reynard]

yeah personally Ive never seen any reason why a martial proficiency gun had to be treated differently to a wand of fireballs

There's definitely a difference between a wand of fireballs and a gun...