Savage Pathfinder - More of a Slog Than PF1?

[Retreater]

During my days of addiction to RPG crowdfunding, I backed some premium releases of Savage Pathfinder and two campaigns (Rise of the Runelords & Curse of the Crimson Throne). I've GMed a one-shot of the adventure that came with the GM screen with my family when we were snowed-in one afternoon, but other than that, there's hundreds of dollars of RPG stuff just sitting there. As my group is wrapping up its first Daggerheart campaign, I'm considering options of what to suggest next, and I look at Savage Pathfinder.

Savage Worlds and I have difficult history - kind of like the ex that you keep trying to get back together with but it never works out. I have frustrations trying to explain the system, combats take too long, it's more swingy and unpredictable than I'd like, etc. But I'd really like to use what I've bought (sunk cost) and I doubt I'll ever run these Adventure Paths in Pathfinder.

So I tried to run Rise of the Runelords for myself as a solo experience. I've never done any solo gaming, but I thought I could just follow the encounters in Burnt Offerings and leave certain decisions to random die rolls. I used the Iconic Archetypes for Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue.

For the first encounter, I used a Quick Encounter - having a single Skill check from each character (Fighting, Spellcasting, Stealth). Over and done with in under two minutes. The second encounter is the set piece fight before the characters get their first Advance. I would try this one with regular combat rules (though I was going to use theatre of the mind instead of a battle map and miniatures).
It took over an hour. For me to play a "fast, furious, and fun" entry-level combat by myself. I considered if it would've been quicker in Pathfinder 1 - which I haven't played since about 2014, but I still remember it pretty well.

The combat consisted of the 4 characters, 7 extras, and 2 wild card enemy spellcasters. I didn't take a lot of time to set up the fight, didn't roleplay or describe anything, knew the rules pretty well, had access to power and condition cards so I wouldn't have to reference the rulebooks, etc. We had tons of whiffing, attacks that didn't wound, enemies that could heal their own wounds, etc.
It was painfully evenly matched, with entire combat rounds amounting to "draws" where no advantage was gained by either side.

My opinion, it's not interesting enough to warrant a one-hour combat. I'm lucky to have a session with 3 hours of actual gameplay. I don't want half of that spent in a fight that ultimately doesn't matter. And with the construction of Paizo APs, it would take a year to get through a single volume.

I feel like Savage Worlds is gaslighting me. It promotes itself as a quick, rules light-ish, free flowing, fun system. Every time I try it, it feels like trudging through molasses.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Savage Worlds reads great on paper, but has strange hiccups every time I get it to the table. My last two campaigns ended early in TPKs and each time no one was interested in continuing on with new characters. It definitely doesn't feel much faster than pathfinder/5e to me. Especially with rolling to hit, then rolling damge, then someone rolling to soak, then making a spirit check etc etc.

 

[MGibster]

I feel like Savage Worlds is gaslighting me. It promotes itself as a quick, rules light-ish, free flowing, fun system. Every time I try it, it feels like trudging through molasses.

As a general rule, I find Savage Worlds to be fast, furious, and fun just as advertised. Typically when I see people whiffing a lot in combat, it's often because they're not using all the options they have available to them. Are they ganging up? Are they trying any Tests to Distract or make their foes Vulnerable? How about Wild Attacks? Called shots to vulnerable areas?

Savage Worlds reads great on paper, but has strange hiccups every time I get it to the table. My last two campaigns ended early in TPKs and each time no one was interested in continuing on with new characters. It definitely doesn't feel much faster than pathfinder/5e to me. Especially with rolling to hit, then rolling damge, then someone rolling to soak, then making a spirit check etc etc.

I had a Deadlands game that almost ended in a TPK when the players encountered a few alligators. I had expected a fairly quick and relatively easy victory for the players, but my rolls were phenomenal with the gators acing their to-hit and damage rolls. Those strange hiccups are certainly part of the game and can be vexing at times.

 

[mikeawmids1]

I'm a big fan of Savage Worlds, but I do not like Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, or the Adventure Paths they have 'converted' so far. Rather than reimagining the adventures to be "Fast, Furious, Fun", they just replicated them as they are, with every pointless/roadbump encounter left in. That was probably a stipulation of their deal with Paizo, but it still sucks. You are infinitely better off getting the Fantasy Companion and converting the adventures yourself - which I did with Rise of the Runelords before Pathfinder for Savage Worlds was ever a thing, and it was great fun!

 

[Retreater]

As a general rule, I find Savage Worlds to be fast, furious, and fun just as advertised. Typically when I see people whiffing a lot in combat, it's often because they're not using all the options they have available to them. Are they ganging up? Are they trying any Tests to Distract or make their foes Vulnerable? How about Wild Attacks? Called shots to vulnerable areas?

Can't easily gang up when you lose the Initiative and are outnumbered and surrounded by Extras. And that's part of the issue - Savage gives you way too many Extras who are too hard to kill. But the Extras, it's easy for them to gang up because of their numbers. But they usually miss anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

The thing about distracting and making wild attacks - it's a zero sum game. If the characters do it, the 10 enemies in combat can do it. Then everyone is -2 to hit and damage, and everything takes longer. It doesn't actually help anything.

Edit: And also, it's a first encounter. Of the new heroes (and presumably new players) against goblins (the most basic enemy in fantasy TTRPGs). It shouldn't feel like a slog that takes over an hour unless the players have the knowledge of advanced combat maneuvers. WTH are they thinking with this system?

 

[UnplayedRanger]

I'm a big fan of Savage Worlds, but I do not like Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, or the Adventure Paths they have 'converted' so far. Rather than reimagining the adventures to be "Fast, Furious, Fun", they just replicated them as they are, with every pointless/roadbump encounter left in. That was probably a stipulation of their deal with Paizo, but it still sucks. You are infinitely better off getting the Fantasy Companion and converting the adventures yourself - which I did with Rise of the Runelords before Pathfinder for Savage Worlds was ever a thing, and it was great fun!

Pinnacle has confirmed that is the case, they are not allowed to adjust the APs or make new ones.

 

[mikeawmids1]

The thing about distracting and making wild attacks - it's a zero sum game. If the characters do it, the 10 enemies in combat can do it. Then everyone is -2 to hit and damage, and everything takes longer. It doesn't actually help anything.

As a Savage Worlds GM, I only have enemies use Wild Attacks (or any other strategic ability) when it is narratively appropriate. The goblins you fight at the beginning of Burnt Offerings probably should not making Wild Attacks, unless the PCs have taken the Taunt action to antagonise them. Ganging up is definitely on brand for goblins though. Sure, you can wreck your players by making optimal strategic choices every round, but is that how these goblins would act?

 

[Tigris]

As a Savage Worlds GM, I only have enemies use Wild Attacks (or any other strategic ability) when it is narratively appropriate. The goblins you fight at the beginning of Burnt Offerings probably should not making Wild Attacks, unless the PCs have taken the Taunt action to antagonise them. Ganging up is definitely on brand for goblins though. Sure, you can wreck your players by making optimal strategic choices every round, but is that how these goblins would act?

So the system only works if the GM plays the enemies in non tactical bad ways? As a player this feels for me awfull, since its a "the GM must intervene else we would lose" feeling.


If its meant for goblins to play dumb, then well the mechanics should reflect that "they cant do maneuver X" or just be played by a simple automaton mechanic instead of a GM, then its part of the game and does not feel like "the GM lets us win".

 

[MGibster]

So the system only works if the GM plays the enemies in non tactical bad ways? As a player this feels for me awfull, since its a "the GM must intervene else we would lose" feeling.

That's not the case. When you make a Wild Attack, you abandon any pretense of a defense in the hopes of striking your enemy. Mechanically speaking, you receive a bonus to strike but it leaves you vulnerable to attack which means it's not always a good idea. Ganging up? Yeah, that's just to be expected when Extras like goblins are doing the attacking. Something a lot of people tend to forget is just how dangerous Extras get when they're attacking as a group. When I run a SW game, Extras definitely gang up when they can.

The thing about distracting and making wild attacks - it's a zero sum game. If the characters do it, the 10 enemies in combat can do it. Then everyone is -2 to hit and damage, and everything takes longer. It doesn't actually help anything.

I don't typically have Extras try out Tests because odds are good they'll fail against a Wildcard.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I had a Deadlands game that almost ended in a TPK when the players encountered a few alligators. I had expected a fairly quick and relatively easy victory for the players, but my rolls were phenomenal with the gators acing their to-hit and damage rolls. Those strange hiccups are certainly part of the game and can be vexing at times.

That's great news for people who are looking for a grity game.