Savage Pathfinder - More of a Slog Than PF1?

[Retreater]

For what I'd like - I would expect a "fast, furious" combat for a beginning level group facing the most basic creatures in a fantasy game to take 30 minutes or less. Especially if we aren't stopping to look up rules or having analysis paralysis. Not over an hour like this is D&D 4E or Draw Steel.

To me, the experience was just "gross." Honestly, after playing more modern games, having turns around a table that do no damage, contribute nothing to the fiction, change nothing, matter not at all, AND having those turns take 15 minutes or more - it's inexcusably poor design.

 

[Dalekdad]

For what I'd like - I would expect a "fast, furious" combat for a beginning level group facing the most basic creatures in a fantasy game to take 30 minutes or less. Especially if we aren't stopping to look up rules or having analysis paralysis. Not over an hour like this is D&D 4E or Draw Steel.

To me, the experience was just "gross." Honestly, after playing more modern games, having turns around a table that do no damage, contribute nothing to the fiction, change nothing, matter not at all, AND having those turns take 15 minutes or more - it's inexcusably poor design.

I'm going to go ahead and say that your GM must have been doing something wrong (and hey, that happens to the best of us when we break out a new system).

I've run Savage Worlds for more than a decade and I've never seen a turn take 15 minutes and only the most epic, sprawling, battle + adventure objective (stop the bomb, escape, etc.) scenes have ever taken longer than 45 minutes for me in Savage Worlds.

 

[Retreater]

I'm going to go ahead and say that your GM must have been doing something wrong (and hey, that happens to the best of us when we break out a new system).

I've run Savage Worlds for more than a decade and I've never seen a turn take 15 minutes and only the most epic, sprawling, battle + adventure objective (stop the bomb, escape, etc.) scenes have ever taken longer than 45 minutes for me in Savage Worlds.

Well, I was the GM. I was running the game as a solo experience, so I was also the only player. This is as close as a white-room/ scientific experiment situation as I could manage.
I used pregenerated characters from the Savage Pathfinder set - the basic iconics of Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. I ran the first two encounters from the first adventure of the first Adventure Path. (Encounter 1 I handled as a Quick Encounter - with Encounter 2 being the "regular" combat that lasted over an hour I'm complaining about.)
I didn't "give" any of the enemies too high Toughness - that is how they were designed in the game, presumably by some of the best writers working for Savage Worlds as this is a flagship product with top production values. I didn't play "weak" characters - again, they were designed by professionals.
I didn't spend time arguing about strategy or looking up rules. I did the most basic, straightforward options available to monsters and characters.
What is a goblin going to do? Surround a hero and attack with his sword ... make a fighting check.
What is a fighter going to do? Attack a goblin. Spend bennies to Soak damage.
What is a rogue going to do? Try to get a drop on a goblin and attack a vulnerable target.
What is a cleric going to do? Cast smite on a weapon and attack - or try to heal an injured ally.
What is a wizard going to do? Cast bolt. Spend bennies to recharge power points.

What happened throughout the battle?
I'd hit a goblin extra. Do enough to Shake them but not Wound it. Goblin would succeed on the Spirit check to become unshaken and would attack the hero - not do enough damage to Shake them.
This went on for over an hour. Just dropping dice by myself and nothing happening.
At least if I were playing Pathfinder 1e, I could kill a goblin in a hit or two. In this game, they'd go from 1) Miss, 2) Enough Damage to Shake him, 3) Maybe enough damage to wound - but probably not. The frustration about Savage is that you can make a roll that - even after you succeed, even after all your computations, still does nothing.

 

[mikeawmids1]

I'm looking at the first few encounters in Burnt Offerings;

1: vs 3 Goblins (Parry 5, Toughness 4)
2: vs 2 Goblin Warchanters (WC, Parry 5, Toughness 6) + 7 Goblins
3: vs 1 Goblin Commander (Wild Card, Parry 6, Toughness 6), 1 Goblin Warchanter (Wild Card), 1 Goblin Dog (Parry 5, Toughness 5) and another 7 Goblin.

Initially I was planning to question how this could have dragged on for over an hour, but looking at this list, that is three combats that should have been condensed into one, and altogether too many Wild Cards.

This is a problem with PF4SW and highlight what I and others have said about the devs leaving in all the trash mobs. This should have been one combat with 1x Wild Card Commander, 1x Dog, 2x Warchanters (extras) and Goblins (2x per PC - 2). I suspect you would have had a better time if you had played Savage Worlds as it was originally intended, rather than Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, which suffers due to the agreement with Paizo not to improve/alter their original work.

Unfortunately, that does kinda' make the PF4SW books kinda' redundant, as you are better off just converting the adventure yourself, if you have access to the original module, and don't mind more prep.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I did the most basic, straightforward options available to monsters and characters.

I mean... it sounds like that was kind of your problem? D&D and Pathfinder work fine if you just do a basic attack every round. Savage Worlds does not. When I GM SW for new players, I'm actively encouraging them to take attack options depending on what they're trying to accomplish. Not only is it more fun for them, it also makes combat smoother and faster.

A basic goblin has a Parry of 5 and a Toughness of 4. The Iconic Fighter has a d8 Fighting. Assuming he is fighting with both weapons equipped, which gives him +1 to Fighting rolls (since the goblin only has a single weapon and no shield). So, with the magic of AnyDice:
Fighting Roll: output [highest of [explode 1d6] and [explode 1d8]] + 1
Longsword Damage: output 2d[explode 1d8]
Longsword Damage (Raise): output 2d[explode 1d8] + [explode 1d6]


Chance to Hit (Basic|Raise): 81% | 24%
Chance to Shake on Hit (Basic|Raise): 95% | 99%
Chance to Wound on Hit (Basic|Raise): 67% | 90%

With Wild Attack:
Chance to Hit (Basic|Raise): 97% | 47%
Chance to Shake on Hit (Basic|Raise): 100% | 100%
Chance to Wound on Hit (Basic|Raise): 84% | 97%

So yeah, a basic swing against a basic goblin mook isn't super likely to one-shot them. But if he Wild Attacks, or combined Wild Attack with a Multi-Action Penalty, he's almost guaranteed to do so. And that's assuming zero setup from his allies (Testing the goblin to make them Shaken or Vulnerable, adding Gang-Up Bonus where possible) or the free Edge the Fighter gets at combat start.

 

[mikeawmids1]

I searched for the thread I made when I ran Burnt Offerings in 2012 and the extract I have posted below (covering the same section you ran solo) highlights what BrokenTwin means about Savage Worlds not shining if you treat it like regular D&D/PF. You need to lean into the pulp action, have enemies sometimes make sub-optimal combat choices if it fits their chaotic/disorganised nature and use the environment to dramatic advantage.

"As the revellers panic, the heroes engage the goblin raiders, hoping to hold the line while the Sandpoint militia organises a counter-strike to repulse the invading force back into the wilderness. Karrack confronts a goblin armed with nothing but a bogey and only the sage use of an Adventure Card saves Krogg from a humiliating, soup-related fatality. Ben spends most of the combat trying to pull a cowering goblin out from beneath a wagon, while another of the little bastards throws plates at Antony's head.

After defeating the first wave of goblins, the party are reinforced by Sheriff Hemlock and a small band of militiamen. In light of the threat to the town, the Sheriff is convinced to deputize the PC's and dispatches them to deal with another group of marauding goblins laying siege to the Rusty Dragon Inn. On route, Karrack saves a small child from being crushed beneath the wheels of a runaway cart."

When I run an RPG solo, I sometimes fall into a routine of "I attack, I roll damage, the enemy attacks, the enemy rolls damage", but Savage Worlds SINGS at the table with other players.

 

[Retreater]

I mean... it sounds like that was kind of your problem? D&D and Pathfinder work fine if you just do a basic attack every round. Savage Worlds does not. When I GM SW for new players, I'm actively encouraging them to take attack options depending on what they're trying to accomplish. Not only is it more fun for them, it also makes combat smoother and faster.

I understand encouraging special tactics and combat maneuvers, but I'm going to be realistic. My players have office jobs and are looking to blow off some steam at the end of the work week. They're only halfway paying attention to the game, being distracted with snacks, movie quotes, and telling puns. After we pack up at the end of a 3-hour session, they don't think about the game, the rules, or their characters until the next session.
Simply put, they're not going to learn a system like this. They want to come in, drop some math rocks, feel like badasses, and kill some goblins. And shouldn't a system promising what Savage Worlds does do this? Should it be a game that requires the players to jump through hoops, taunting and distracting, rolling opposed tests, just to defeat the bare minimum, most weaksauce enemy in the history of tabletop roleplaying games (the goblin)?
What are we even doing here?!

Unfortunately, that does kinda' make the PF4SW books kinda' redundant, as you are better off just converting the adventure yourself, if you have access to the original module, and don't mind more prep.

Yeah. Maybe. The whole problem was I've dropped a bit of cash for this game: $600 across three Kickstarters. I'd like to use it, which is why I was contemplating doing a solo run through of it. But maybe it's best just to cut my losses and give up on this whole system.(Savage Worlds).

 

[Staffan]

What happened throughout the battle?
I'd hit a goblin extra. Do enough to Shake them but not Wound it. Goblin would succeed on the Spirit check to become unshaken and would attack the hero - not do enough damage to Shake them.
This went on for over an hour. Just dropping dice by myself and nothing happening.
At least if I were playing Pathfinder 1e, I could kill a goblin in a hit or two. In this game, they'd go from 1) Miss, 2) Enough Damage to Shake him, 3) Maybe enough damage to wound - but probably not. The frustration about Savage is that you can make a roll that - even after you succeed, even after all your computations, still does nothing.

There's something weird happening here. Valeros, the Fighter archetype, should be taking out one or two goblins per round. He has Fighting d8 and is dual-wielding for +1(page 140, Two Weapons). He can also use Martial Flexibility to get Two Weapon Fighting (or some other feat, but that one seems likely) which means he'll be attacking twice without penalty, once with his long sword (2d8 damage) and once with his short sword (d8+d6 damage). A basic goblin has Parry 5 and Toughness 4. Without other shenanigans going on, he has an 81% chance to hit and a 25% chance of a Raise (for +1d6 damage). A regular long sword hit will have a 95% chance to Shake the goblin and a 67% chance of giving it a Wound, and a Raise would increase those to 100% and 91%. A second short sword attach has the same chance to hit, with a 94% chance to Shake (which would take out a previously Shaken goblin) and a 58% chance to Wound, or 100% and 88% with a Raise.

Merisiel, the Rogue, has Fighting d8 but generally isn't dual-wielding. So she should be having an accuracy of 67% and get Raises on 22% of attacks. Her damage is d6+d4 for 88% chance to Shake and 39% chance to Wound. If her opponent is Vulnerable, her accuracy goes up to 92%/48% with damage hitting 99%/78%, or 100%/96% with a Raise.

Kyra the Cleric only has Fighting d6, giving her an accuracy of 56%/21%. Her damage is 2d6 for 92%/47%, or 100%/84% with a Raise. I haven't done the math, but it's possible she's better off using Tests against goblins in order to make them Vulnerable for Merisiel. If she's going to cast smite, she's probably better off casting it on Merisiel's or Valeros's weapons.

Ezren the Wizard attacks with his bolt spell which uses Spellcasting d10, +1 for his Arcane Bond. This attack normally has a TN of 4 instead of Parry, but is affected by things like visibility and cover. But d10+1 vs 4 has an accuracy of 93%/50% (highest in the group), with the same damage as Kyra (1d6). On the minus side, he does have limited oomph on account of being limited by PP.

So all things considered, Valeros should be dispatching a goblin or two by himself, and the rest of the party should be putting in a similar contribution.

That said, Savage Worlds can have a bit of a whiffing problem when fighting tougher foes. But that shouldn't appear when fighting goblins.

 

[Staffan]

Simply put, they're not going to learn a system like this. They want to come in, drop some math rocks, feel like badasses, and kill some goblins. And shouldn't a system promising what Savage Worlds does do this?

To be honest: no. If your players won't engage with the system, pretty much no system is going to be satisfactory. Or at least no system with a depth beyond that of Lasers & Feelings.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't equate swingy to gritty. Swingy, as this was described, means more dice and luck dependent (which translates t less skill and tactics dependent). So hard encounters might be simple for the players just as easy encounters might be hard. Going into a something the players are scared of and having it be a cakewalk doesn't read as gritty to me, even if it means an occasional encounter isn't as easy as expected.

The only thing the swing will normally do is make something more punchy it otherwise might seem to be, making any attack risky for the target. Its not impossible for this to translate into harder in the sense you take a hit you wouldn't expect to take, but its unlikely to make you incompetent other than in the extreme dice aberrations almost any system can produce.

The swinginess in SW mostly translates into there being a bigger gap between typical rolls and top end rolls than you'll see in most systems.