D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[Minigiant]

Personally i like firearms to be the "easy but way too cost, rate of fire, and logistics expensive " option in my D&D.

Meaning a rich noble can buy some muskets and store a lot of shot and bullets to hold back a few dozen guys with only 2 commoner men-at-arms during a siege. which can be stolen by hobgoblins to hold a nearby fort.

But no one has the money and roads to arm a force of riflemen.

 

[AlViking]

Personally, i move firearms to simple weapons.

Modern guns just kill vibe of D&D for me. And by modern, i mean anything with cased ammo, so late 19ct tech. Laser, plasma and similar futuristic stuff, that's just wands in another form that don't need caster atunement.

I wouldn't move them to simple weapons because in order to be proficient with them it really does take quite a bit of practice. Anyone can use a gun of course, just like anyone can use a longbow. Someone using them just won't be as effective as someone trained to use them.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I wouldn't move them to simple weapons because in order to be proficient with them it really does take quite a bit of practice. Anyone can use a gun of course, just like anyone can use a longbow. Someone using them just won't be as effective as someone trained to use them.

is that not what weapon proficiency represents? your training taken to learn how to use a weapon?

of course, you don't need to make all guns simple or martial, you can split them up between the two as is appropriate for each gun.

 

[Reynard]

is that not what weapon proficiency represents? your training taken to learn how to use a weapon?

of course, you don't need to make all guns simple or martial, you can split them up between the two as is appropriate for each gun.

Isn't everyone proficient with simple weapons, and therefore there is no "training" involved? I think what @AlViking was suggesting is that just picking up a gun doesn't let you use it effectively; you need training.

Personally, I think they should be a category of their own, rather than just folded into Martial Weapons.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Isn't everyone proficient with simple weapons, and therefore there is no "training" involved? I think what @AlViking was suggesting is that just picking up a gun doesn't let you use it effectively; you need training.

Personally, I think they should be a category of their own, rather than just folded into Martial Weapons.

ah, that might've been a change made in '24 that i hadn't really noticed, at least in '14 there were classes that didn't get blanket simple weapon proficiency, the wizard and sorcerer most notably, so you could theoretically say 'here are the classes that have absolutely zero proficiency with guns'.

but my point was more, even if there are some types of gun which every adventurer* has enough training to just pick up and use there should be other types which require far more discipline and training to be able to use effectively.

*we need to remember that adventurers really aren't just your random joe schmoe plucked off the market street or their uncle's farm with 'no training', we might like to imagine that they are but given all the proficiencies and abilities even a level 1 character has i find that incredibly improbable.

 

[AlViking]

is that not what weapon proficiency represents? your training taken to learn how to use a weapon?

of course, you don't need to make all guns simple or martial, you can split them up between the two as is appropriate for each gun.

Not sure what you're saying. If firearms are martial weapons anyone can still use them and any other martial weapons. They don't get their proficiency bonus if not trained in martial weapons. I think effectively using firearms takes a bit of practice, especially if you're doing something more than shooting at a stationary target a dozen feet away or less.

It somewhat depends on the firearms available. A pistol may be a simple weapon, especially if it's a double action revolver because you're only dealing with relatively short ranges anyway. But even a semi-automatic pistol much less older muzzle loading designs are not that simple. But shooting at range requires you to understand how range affects bullet drop and hitting moving targets is not that simple. It might be more realistic to simply have slower loading times and decreased range accuracy but D&D doesn't really model that.

It really depends on whether or not you want that wizard to be carrying around a musket instead of relying on cantrips if they don't want to cast a leveled spells.

 

[TheSword]

Late to this party, but…

They’re just another type of weapon, nothing inherently special about them. I’ve been playing WFRP 4e with a wide range of guns for years, it plays the same.

Make them martial weapons, make sure they have Loading. Don’t create a feat that removes this.

There seems to be a wide attempt to mythologize guns as needing to be special. They don’t, it’s a game.

 

[NotAYakk]

So:

- Spain vs. the Aztecs involved local allies and unpopular rulers. This wasn't particularly won by any kind of technological superiority; they were just part of a winning coalition.

- The three examples you give for the Portugal/Malay wars are naval engagements. I specifically mentioned Naval battles being different.

Yes, proper warships (with cannons) were devastating against lancharas (which as far as I can tell, were lightly-armoured troop carriers) in naval engagements.

But, well, I handwaved away naval combat because D&D and wargames that aren't specifically naval combat wargames generally don't involve naval combat.

If you introduce firearms and cannons to your fantasy setting yes, the dominant ships should be Age of Sail era warships with cannons (which I think can be fun - not to spend too much time shilling, but I like that in the Ninth Age - the setting I write for - Elven dominance over the world has just been rocked by the humans inventing proper warships. Medieval stasis is silly; put the world on the brink of change, that's great, it means everyone is living in Interesting Times).

But anyway: Guns aren't an important part of this shift. They're effective weapons, they get used, but they don't dominate land-based warfare until... well, historians can argue about the exact line, but it's definitely a while after their invention.

Again, I was disagreeing with " Colonial era warfare was generally, up until quite late stages, a matter of larger European armies defeating smaller armies possessed by economically weaker polities."

None of these where larger European armies defeating smaller armies. Sending a large European army in ships overseas to defeat people on their home turf is not the typical colonial war to the best of my knowledge.

If you are making apparently false claims like "colonial wars are about larger European armies defeating smaller armies", then backing up to different claim, then saying this different claim disagrees with what I said (which it does not), then it is an extremely rude way to talk to someone. I do not appreciate it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Late to this party, but…

They’re just another type of weapon, nothing inherently special about them. I’ve been playing WFRP 4e with a wide range of guns for years, it plays the same.

Make them martial weapons, make sure they have Loading. Don’t create a feat that removes this.

There seems to be a wide attempt to mythologize guns as needing to be special. They don’t, it’s a game.

i agree with most of this, guns aren't special, don't mythologize them, don't have a feat that circumvents loading, but i would at least say don't make them all loading by default, there should be guns you can fire quickly and guns you can only shoot once a round.

 

[TheSword]

i agree with most of this, guns aren't special, don't mythologize them, don't have a feat that circumvents loading, but i would at least say don't make them all loading by default, there should be guns you can fire quickly and guns you can only shoot once a round.

Sure, no problem having that in treasure. The techological equivalent of a magic weapon. I’d also let there be blessed silver bullets inscribed with crosses, blunderbus that can be loaded with bits of cutlery and feats that let pistols that can be fired out of initiative order. Loads of fun to be had.

Just on the damage, I don’t mind if pistols do the same damage as larger guns but at a short range.