Third Party Publisher designation and logo

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Poster Bard

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The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is available as OGC. The attached zip file contains 16 images and a copy of the OGL as seen below. The images are in four sizes and types; 64, 100, 250, and 500; bmp, gif, jpg, and tif.

Open Game License v1.0a

The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
3.Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.
4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
5.Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.
6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.
7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.
10. Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.
12. Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.
13. Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.
14. Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE - Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Third Party Publisher designation and logo established for public use as Open Game Content in September 2003. No copyright or trademark is held on the designation or logo by any individual or group, public or private. [End of License]
Notice of Open Game Content: The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is Open Game Content as defined in the Open Game License, above. Open Game Content may only be used under and in terms of the Open Game License.
 

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Planesdragon

First Post
Fractionalization is bad

Poster Bard said:
The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is available as OGC. The attached zip file contains 16 images and a copy of the OGL as seen below. The images are in four sizes and types; 64, 100, 250, and 500; bmp, gif, jpg, and tif.
Interesting design, but by and large this is a bad idea.

What is this logo supposed to mean? Who is going to define it? Why should anyone use this logo as opposed to an extant "third party" logo, or just the very easy to recognize twenty-sided die?


Just in case you missed it, the Free Gaming Association has two free-to-use logos at our website, www.theFGA.com. Our main focus logo, Prometheus, is a rule-compatability logo with no strings attached and a perpetual license. (The announcement should come later today.) Our secondary logo, which is very much open to re-design, is the OpenDie logo, a designator that a product supports Open Gaming.

If you are attached to your logo, and it means something other than compatability (Prometheus) or "Openness" (OpenDie), we'd be pleased to host a copy and explanation. However, if it's just yet another logo that means the same thing, then it's fractionalization of the market, and that's a Bad Thing.
 

waterprophet

First Post
Poster Bard said:
The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is available as OGC. The attached zip file contains 16 images and a copy of the OGL as seen below. The images are in four sizes and types; 64, 100, 250, and 500; bmp, gif, jpg, and tif.

Well, let me start out by saying that I am not a third party publisher (at this time). I don't really have the time to pump out books, even in pdf format.

I think that stretching away from a set of restrictive rules (current changes to the OGL and the d20 license) is a good thing, and I fully agree with the reasons for this endeavor.

However, I am a graphic designer and a consumer. I think that a better job could have been done with the logo to make it more eye catching and interesting. Also, I imagine that the logo itself will be used on covers/backs of books in a small format, and the text will most likely not be legible at that size (or is with great eye strain).

Anyway, I am not criticising for the sake of criticising. I just wanted to offer some consumer feedback. What would you think of opening up a design contest to the rest of the community and then picking your favorite logo from a group? I for one would gladly do it for free because I support the cause and it would be fun.

Cheers,

~magnus

(magnus@mail2go.com)
 

smetzger

Explorer
Planesdragon said:
Our main focus logo, Prometheus, is a rule-compatability logo with no strings attached and a perpetual license. (The announcement should come later today.)

I hope the above is true and that you will be updating your website with the final license. Because presently presently the draft license has too many restrictions.
 

tensen

First Post
I have the problem with the concept of a third party designation.

Sure, I release products under the d20 license... and I am a 'third party' to the Dungeons & Dragons....

But I'm a first party of my own d20 materials. So take a look at the licensing of use of other d20 materials.

Such as Mystic Eye Games supporting Dragonstar. They'd be a third party support for Dragonstar. But if that logo got used by say Fantasy Flight... might not customers be confused on whether the material was official canon for the setting or not?
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
Planesdragon said:
Interesting design,

I agree.

Planesdragon said:
but by and large this is a bad idea.

I could not disagree more.

Planesdragon said:
What is this logo supposed to mean?

The only thing that the Third Party Publisher designation and logo does is show usage of the OGL, since it is OGC and requires the OGL to use.

Planesdragon said:
Who is going to define it?

Those who use it will define it, as with any designation or logo, insomuch as it relates to their own products and product lines as published under the OGL.

Planesdragon said:
Why should anyone use this logo as opposed to an extant "third party" logo, or just the very easy to recognize twenty-sided die?

There are no rights, restrictions (beyond OGL use) or trademarks involved in the Third Party Publisher designation and logo. It is not impossible to believe that a system that uses only six-sided dice will be released under the OGL and then a twenty-sided die becomes confusing, detrimental and promotes fractionalization. The Third Party Publisher designation and logo promotes no single system over another.

Planesdragon said:
Just in case you missed it, the Free Gaming Association has two free-to-use logos at our website, www.theFGA.com. Our main focus logo, Prometheus, is a rule-compatability logo with no strings attached and a perpetual license. (The announcement should come later today.) Our secondary logo, which is very much open to re-design, is the OpenDie logo, a designator that a product supports Open Gaming.

I am aware of the FGA (have been since its start), and have been following the current repositioning and wrangling over the guidelines and licensing plans. I would find dropping the d20 logo and picking up the FGA logos to be tantamount to trading off one set of restrictions for another. I see no reason why an open designation and logo can't simply be completely open without *any* restrictions and this is what has been released in the form of the Third Party Publisher designation and logo. The Prometheus logo is saddled with what amounts to a meaningless rule-compatibility clause since it attempts to promote some level of compatibility but that level will invariably fluctuate from product to product.

The OpenDie logo plans to have a license and guidebook governing it's use which bears the same onus that plagues the d20 logo, IMO. As with any license it bears restrictions and/or it can be changed/altered at a future time. In either case, the resulting license/restrictions may not suit all current or future publishers. The OpenDie logo seeks levels of usage and discussions suggest that there will be identifiers eventually in place to promote an idea of varying defined levels of compatibility which to my mind promotes fractionalization within the market from company to company and further within companies from product to product.

There is no vague reference to "reasonable compatibility" with the Third Party Publisher designation and logo. There are no "levels of usage" and is no hierarchy involved in using the Third Party Publisher designation and logo. Those types of restrictions promote fractionalization and are a BAD thing, IMO.

Planesdragon said:
If you are attached to your logo, and it means something other than compatability (Prometheus) or "Openness" (OpenDie)

Nothing will ever mean "Compatibility" since that will always be in the eye of the consumer and must be decided on a product by product basis regardless even if the products are released by a single publisher. Further, since it is possible to release completely unrelated systems under the OGL there is no possible way to claim a logo will forever mean "Compatibility" as time marches on. Nothing can mean "Openness" more than a designation and logo released completely free of restrictions (aside from use of the OGL) except for one released completely free of the OGL altogether.

Planesdragon said:
we'd be pleased to host a copy and explanation.

The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is Open Game content as defined by the Open Game License 1.0a and you are free to do with it what you will within the parameters of that license. As Open Game Content is is available now and will forever be available under those same conditions as when it became available.

Planesdragon said:
However, if it's just yet another logo that means the same thing, then it's fractionalization of the market, and that's a Bad Thing.

It definitely does not mean the same thing, as outlined above, and I am not interested in trading one set of restrictions for another. It is the defining of those restrictions, the licensing of them, and the fact that they can change in ways that cannot be foreseen that foster fractionalization, IMO, and that is a Bad thing.

The Third Party Publisher designation and logo is definitely a GOOD thing.

To revisit part of your statement in further detail...

Planesdragon said:
Our main focus logo, Prometheus, is a rule-compatability logo

Compatibility with what, with whom, and for how long?
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
waterprophet said:
Well, let me start out by saying that I am not a third party publisher (at this time). I don't really have the time to pump out books, even in pdf format.

I think that stretching away from a set of restrictive rules (current changes to the OGL and the d20 license) is a good thing, and I fully agree with the reasons for this endeavor.

Thanks. I look forward to seeing future work by you someday. You may find the time yet.

waterprophet said:
However, I am a graphic designer and a consumer. I think that a better job could have been done with the logo to make it more eye catching and interesting. Also, I imagine that the logo itself will be used on covers/backs of books in a small format, and the text will most likely not be legible at that size (or is with great eye strain).

Anyway, I am not criticising for the sake of criticising. I just wanted to offer some consumer feedback. What would you think of opening up a design contest to the rest of the community and then picking your favorite logo from a group? I for one would gladly do it for free because I support the cause and it would be fun.

The logo was made to be simple and clear. As to "eye-catching", I'd personally prefer my company logo to be more prominent and the Third Party Publisher logo to be a plain, secondary point of recognition on a product, but to each his own. If anyone wishes to make adjustments to it, it *is* Open Game Content and they need only follow the OGL (regarding derivitive content) to do so.
 
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Planesdragon

First Post
smetzger said:
I hope the above is true and that you will be updating your website with the final license. Because presently presently the draft license has too many restrictions.
Can you elaborate on what restrictions you find too onerous?

The PCL is essentially a tool to ensure that the logo maintains its meaning. It's largely based on the d20STL, and the 1.0 final is a perpetual license--the language requiring updates was stricken, and once we launch it, anyone will be able to take the license, take our logo, and put it on any "compatable" product that they want.
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
tensen said:
I have the problem with the concept of a third party designation.

Sure, I release products under the d20 license... and I am a 'third party' to the Dungeons & Dragons....

But I'm a first party of my own d20 materials. So take a look at the licensing of use of other d20 materials.

Such as Mystic Eye Games supporting Dragonstar. They'd be a third party support for Dragonstar. But if that logo got used by say Fantasy Flight... might not customers be confused on whether the material was official canon for the setting or not?

All releases under the OGL are Third Party after a fashion, perhaps even fourth or fifth, for that matter. Strictly speaking "Third Party" means "other than the principles" and as a release under an Open Game License is meant to place material under that license and possibly on an equal footing within the greater marketplace, the designation and logo seem very appropriate.

The companies you cite are less of an example perhaps than those that support AU or those using the M&M Super-Link.

Bottom line, either no material is canon or all material is potentially canon (as determined by individual consumers), and once you jump from system to system there is no way to divide canon from non-canon, so attempting to do so with a completely open designation or logo would be pointless, IMO.

If a single company wants to allow another company to make official products for their product line it requires an agreement between those companies, probably a seperate licence, and likely a designated logo. That's fractionalization by choice.
 
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Khur

Sympathy for the Devil
Not to....

You know, the ideas behind these logos isn't bad, it's just not very poignant. Unless somebody behind one of these logos has the dough to push it into public awareness as a brand identity, it's not worth anyone's time to use or pursue. Posting it on EN World, while a good start, certainly is not enough to promote brand awareness.

What I really mean to say is that, as a publisher, you'll get more mileage out of the following statement (or relevant variation thereof) in 12 pt. type on your book's cover (even the back cover copy):

"Based on the revised edition of the world's most popular roleplaying game! You already know how to play!"

or (for splatbooks)

"Designed for use with the revised edition of the world's most popular roleplaying game!"

or

"Published under the Open Gaming License to be compatible with 3rd Edition revised rules."

Either of these statements is more effective than any logo, besides the d20 logo. The latter is true only because of the brand-building clout behind the d20 logo. Green Ronin and Monte Cook both used similar statements on their books--but those books would have sold anyway because of the marketing behind them.

Until any "third-party" logo can carry some brand recognition, it's meaningless to the public at large. I think your best bet, instead of posting such things here or running a small website with older, but equally obscure logos (FGA), you should start talking to the movers and shakers in this arena and see if there's really a demand for this. With that powerful consortium of game designers, get the best graphic artist among them to make one logo that takes care of the issue. If you have Green Ronin and Sword & Sorcery using a OGL-indicative logo, you've won.

BTW, that Prometheus logo is pretty good (from a graphic design standpoint, not brand-recognition).

Until then, I'll stick with the sentences above for my compatibility statement.

Good luck.

:D
 

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