The Art of Eberron: AWESOME new WOTC Update!

Kai Lord · Feb 20, 2004

Greatwyrm said:
Well, there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief when you play D&D in the first place. If you can already handle people disintegrating their enemies, travelling to alternate planes of existance, and invisible servants that do your laundry, I don't see why "it's fantasy" doesn't hold water.

Because the explanation for those elements you mentioned are "its magic." Doesn't really hold water reasonably for Eberron. Major cities can compare notes via the Lightning Rail and no one uses gunpowder? No one's thought of that because "its magic?" Its a valid question giving the reported "magitech" (or whatever appropriate word) techology levels of the setting.

I guess part of what sounded cool about Eberron was that it sounded like Keith was directly addressing the hand waving issues of prior settings (like how does continual light, cure disease, create food and water, etc. change a medieval society.) That sounded really cool. But by incorporating those elements in a logical manner, it appears he may have created a like number of illogical "hand waves" in the other direction. Not a huge deal, but I was actually getting psyched that someone other than JRR Tolkien had crafted a fantasy setting that is internally consistent and "makes sense" if you will.

Greatwyrm · Feb 20, 2004

Kai Lord said:
Major cities can compare notes via the Lightning Rail and no one uses gunpowder?

--snip--

But by incorporating those elements in a logical manner, it appears he may have created a like number of illogical "hand waves" in the other direction.

I guess it depends on how fast you wave your hand.

I think the main point where I disagree with you is the premise that a certain level of cultural or technological advancement demands certain concepts or inventions be present.

Again looking at our own world, there are a number of inventions that appeared in one place and not another. How long did the Chinese have gunpowder before they turned it into a weapon? Did anyone else develop gunpowder independently in the mean time? How did Gutenburg invent the moveable type printing press and no one else did? How did the Native American tribes in the Great Plains rely so heavily on horses, but never develop the stirrup?

Given a few examples like this, I think it's entirely plausible that gunpowder hasn't been discovered on Eberron. It really could be as simple as nobody trying to do it, even though a need may exist. Seriously, if you were in a magic friendly world and needed an efficient way to blow people up, would you:

a) play in the dirt and hope to discover some mixture of elements that will do it

b) take the Fireball spell you already have and modify it

I'd wager if you'd never heard of gunpowder, option B would be faster, cheaper, and ultimately more effective.

Shard O'Glase · Feb 20, 2004

Henry said:
Thank you for the info, Keith - now go to bed! (Hopefully you're there by the time I'm writing this).

Is there something going on between you can keith that we should know about.

Henry · Feb 20, 2004

Shard O'Glase said:
Is there something going on between you can keith that we should know about?

Shh! Not around the wives!

Read his post before mine. At the time, he was writing to us goofballs instead of getting his rest, according to his words.

Utrecht · Feb 20, 2004

Greatwyrm said:
Again looking at our own world, there are a number of inventions that appeared in one place and not another. How long did the Chinese have gunpowder before they turned it into a weapon? Did anyone else develop gunpowder independently in the mean time? How did Gutenburg invent the moveable type printing press and no one else did? How did the Native American tribes in the Great Plains rely so heavily on horses, but never develop the stirrup?

A bit of a clarification - The Native American Tribes never saw the horse until it was introduced by the Europeans. The Stirrup was invented long before this - the Parthian - in about 400 AD or so....IIRC

That all being said, your basic premise is correct - it is quite a bit easier to refine know ideas that develop brand new ones. There are numerous reasons for this:

1) Cost
2) Resistance to change
3) Different Ideas generally require radical thoughts - something that was not encouraged before the advent of Scientific Method - and there are whole theories on what scientific thought developed the way that they did.

Greatwyrm · Feb 20, 2004

Utrecht said:
A bit of a clarification - The Native American Tribes never saw the horse until it was introduced by the Europeans. The Stirrup was invented long before this - the Parthian - in about 400 AD or so....IIRC

But even after that, the Native Americans had both the need (a reliance on horses) and the technology (basic leatherworking) but never independently produced the stirrup. I guess I'm just trying to say need combined with ability doesn't always produce the same results.

Hoooooo. We're way off topic now. How 'bout them mechanical wizards?

Utrecht · Feb 20, 2004

Greatwyrm said:
Hoooooo. We're way off topic now. How 'bout them mechanical wizards?

Odd, Grock hate change!!!!

rounser · Feb 20, 2004

this is just the first setting to not play coy and say "OK, so there are giant teleport gates all over, and immortal beings and dragons, but other than that, it's JUST like a more hygenic medieval Europe," which is the horse pill we've all been swallowing for years.

It's in-genre with sword & sorcery fantasy norms, and therefore much easier to suspend disbelief for, because it's bouyed by the genre. You don't get magical plumbing by default in S&S fantasy for the same reason mages don't invent magical machine guns or magical cars.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Feb 23, 2004

rounser said:
It's in-genre with sword & sorcery fantasy norms, and therefore much easier to suspend disbelief for, because it's bouyed by the genre. You don't get magical plumbing by default in S&S fantasy for the same reason mages don't invent magical machine guns or magical cars.

I find it hard to believe that something the Romans possessed two thousand years ago would break the disbelief of anyone worth playing an RPG with.

And, in point of fact, I have been in at least as many RPG sessions since 1979 that included some sort of Roman-style plumbing as embraced the "the king's the only one not covered in sheot" style of grungy dark ages play.

I think people who object to some of the elements of Eberron are trying to project their own objections onto the general playerbase as a whole, whether they realize it or not.

Kai Lord · Feb 23, 2004

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I think people who object to some of the elements of Eberron are trying to project their own objections onto the general playerbase as a whole, whether they realize it or not.

I don't think anyone on this thread is really objecting to anything in Eberron. Keith implied that a good portion of Eberron was created to address the logical manner in which a medieval society would undoubtedly change with inclusion of D&D style magic. That's great, and quite unique, its just that it appears that the manner in which he addresses those issues create just as many questions as to why things haven't changed more. But we don't have all the info on the setting so its hard to tell for certain.

One thing is certain however, I definitely love the flavor he (and the WOTC staff bringing the setting to life) is going for. Looking forward to the release.

The Art of Eberron: AWESOME new WOTC Update!

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