Inspired by Lords of Madness (Updated with 65% more ideas, and 74% more confusion)!

DungeonmasterCal said:

It's called neoteny. Why, oh why do I know this stuff?? *shakes head and wanders away*

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Thanks. I just got done TAing development, and I really, REALLY should have been able to remember that. Stupid brain...

Okay. I've read further, and I've got more.

It says that the illithid came back from the end of the time, not actually because the world was ending, but because they were being defeated by an unknown enemy. Those who returned manipulate kingdoms to study the rise and fall of empires, so they can be certain that this time, when they (re)create their own empire, they can build it stronger. It'll be done "right," it'll be permanent.

And that, of course, has sparked new theories in my twisted brain, as well as tying into my old. Follow me, if you will.

The aboleth are one of the most ancient forms of life. Eventually, an offshoot of them becomes not only ambhibious, but actually land-dwelling. Over the span of eons, this offshoot evolves into the illithid.

Of course, the aboleth meet the illithid long before this, since other illithid came back from the future, but we'll get to that.

This original "strain" of mind flayers eventually rises to power and, late in the "life" of the universe, founds their empire. They are defeated by an unknown enemy, so they gather unheard of amounts of psychic energy and send some of their number back in time.

These "out of time" illithids become the mind flayers we all know and love. Hundreds and thousands of generations pass. They study the way empires rise and fall, and they determine that when they found their empire, it'll be better than it was "last" time (even though last time hasn't happened yet).

Then they discover the empire that the original (aboleth-descended mind flayers) are founding. And they're doing it wrong. They're making all the mistakes that the mind flayers descended from the time travelers have learned not to make. And the second strain of illithid realizes that they must supplant the original strain, to ensure the survival of their empire.

In other words, according to this particularly convoluted plot idea...

The unknown enemies that wiped out the illithid empire were, in fact, the descendents of the illithid who went back in time to escape the unknown ememies who were wiping out their empire.

Assuming your eyes haven't crossed, what do you think? I feel there's some great campaign/story potential here, but I'd love to hear other responses.

That's a very interesting twist. The real question is, why did the very first group of illithids go back to the past (there must have been some initial group that went back the first time to become the interlopers). Perhaps the very first illithids initiated the whole sequence as a means to use survival of the fittest to evolve their civilisation to the next level in a convoluted, extraordinarily long-term plot. In fact, perhaps Ilsensine is the ultimate result of illithid evolution over countless cycles of survival and time travel!

Rystil Arden said:

That's a very interesting twist. The real question is, why did the very first group of illithids go back to the past (there must have been some initial group that went back the first time to become the interlopers).

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That's the beauty of time travel. There doesn't have to be a reason they went back before the interlopers arrived, because there was no "before" the interlopers. They went back in time, therefore they were present before the event that caused them to go back in time. Therefore, they caused the event that caused them to go back in time, which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't gone back in time.

Don't think of it as the event happening twice. It didn't. It happened once. It's just that one element of the event saw its genesis in the years after the event began. Gotta love time travel paradoxes. You can have effect before cause.

Mouseferatu said:

That's the beauty of time travel. There doesn't have to be a reason they went back before the interlopers arrived, because there was no "before" the interlopers. They went back in time, therefore they were present before the event that caused them to go back in time. Therefore, they caused the event that caused them to go back in time, which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't gone back in time.

Don't think of it as the event happening twice. It didn't. It happened once. It's just that one element of the event saw its genesis in the years after the event began. Gotta love time travel paradoxes. You can have effect before cause.

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The mobius strip timeline that eats its own tail is one way to go, but it only works in a universe with absolute immutable causality. So that means the PCs absolutely can't change the future (so if the PC Slayer really wants to slay the present-day illithids, he will always fail due to the deterministic universe ).

Its a fine way to go, but I prefer the spiraling timeline where the future can be changed.

Oh, I don't think it makes it impossible to change. It's just that nobody can foresee the consequences of changing it.

Think of the Terminator movies (well, at least the first two, which were written without the third in mind). Cyberdine built the technology that would lead to the terminators, in part, by studying the technology that was brought back in time by the first terminator. And yet, at the end of the second movie, that was prevented.

It's the same thing here. Cause and effect. You can still change the effect by changing the cause; it's just that, in this particular case, the cause happens to come after the effect, not before it.

Mouseferatu said:

Then they discover the empire that the original (aboleth-descended mind flayers) are founding. And they're doing it wrong. They're making all the mistakes that the mind flayers descended from the time travelers have learned not to make. And the second strain of illithid realizes that they must supplant the original strain, to ensure the survival of their empire.

In other words, according to this particularly convoluted plot idea...

The unknown enemies that wiped out the illithid empire were, in fact, the descendents of the illithid who went back in time to escape the unknown ememies who were wiping out their empire.

Assuming your eyes haven't crossed, what do you think? I feel there's some great campaign/story potential here, but I'd love to hear other responses.

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Ok, you asked for it...

At some point you need to ask what the time-traveling illithids evolved into during these countless eons while the aboleths evolved into the original illithids. When they turned against their own ancestors, what had they become?

Why, they had become none other than the Phrenic Scourges! I'm sure most of us here consider the phrenic scourge to be merely the product of some blood-sucking rodent's imagination( ), but they're actually Illithids Evolved!

So, what are the phrenic scourges doing here in our time if they're a product of the future? Well, after conquering the future illithid empire, their civilization was beset by an unstopable threat. They too traveled back in time to prevent their eventual defeat. Yes, the present phrenic scourges are the descendants of time travellers also.

OK, so what do these phrenic scourges evolve into during the eons in which illithids evolve into phrenic scourges and the aboleths evolve into illithids. Yep, you guessed it! These phrenic scourges evolve into Flumphs!

So now the questions are why are the flumphs here and what do they evolve into...

Sam

KaosDevice said:

Sooooo.....you're talking weresquid here?

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were means man. So it would be more like illitholeth or abolid.

reanjr said:

were means man. So it would be more like illitholeth or abolid.

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And lyca in lycanthrope means wolf. Yet a wereboar, werebat, wereowl, weredolphin, wereturtle, wereplatypus, wereladybug, etc. is still classified as a lycanthrope.

Even if it's a kobold wereflumph, thus neither lyc nor anthrope.

...

I'll have to have a kobold wereflumph at some point IMC.

Samuel Leming said:

So, what are the phrenic scourges doing here in our time if they're a product of the future? Well, after conquering the future illithid empire, their civilization was beset by an unstopable threat. They too traveled back in time to prevent their eventual defeat. Yes, the present phrenic scourges are the descendants of time travellers also.

OK, so what do these phrenic scourges evolve into during the eons in which illithids evolve into phrenic scourges and the aboleths evolve into illithids. Yep, you guessed it! The phrenic scourges in the far future evolve into Flumphs!

So now the questions are why are the flumphs here and what do they evolve into...

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Well, obviously, the unstoppable threat is nothing else than the relentlessly Lawful Good Flumphs. At some point in their history, a great hero/prophet came and explained to the proto-flumphs the errors of their way, and helped become the paragons of holyness they now are. And wo was this prophets who helped the protoflumphs evolve into actual flumphs? Well, a time-travelling monastic flumph from the future, of course!

But the Flumph Prophet itself evolved over the time, in its quest for enlightenment, and eventually sublimated the limits of flesh in order to become pure, raw energy being. Yes, that's right, eventually, the Flumph Prophet will become an Energon. The first Energon.

And why are energons in this present day? Well, the elemental and energy planes they live on are not subject to the tyranny of time. As soon as they started existing, they have always existed. So that when the Flumph Prophet reached enlightenment once again, he became another, different Energon. Who always existed as well.

All Energons are just a single atemporal being. Yet they are distinct, harming one doesn't harm the others. But they're still all the same. They're infinite in number.