What should Giants really look like?

Someone · Mar 13, 2007

Cthulhudrew said:
I was reading something recently about the unsuitability for the human skeletal structure to sustain really large people. Now, I should probably know more about this than I do, but sadly I never really paid much attention in my physical anthro classes (was always more into the social/cultural anthro), so I must claim ignorance.

We've got a lot of smart people here, so maybe someone else can comment on the veracity of this theory, and if true- what sort of bodies would "real" giants need in order to sustain their mass? In short, what would D&D's giants look like in the real world?

Probably already mentioned, but the most basic objection against direct scaling is known as the cuadradic-cubic law. Basically, it says that keeping everything else constant if you increase a body's size, surface and variables that depend on surface (like muscle strenght) increase quadratically (that is, if you doble the size muscles would roughly be 4 times as strong) but the volume and variales that depend on volume's increase is cubic (so, for a doubling in size, you get an increase in weight by a factor of 8)

So a human body simply augmented would lose ability to move itself. The key is the "keeping everything else constant". Variations in materials strenght (stronger bones, better muscles) and construction (wider build) can allow biger sizes. And justify why they have those high natural armor values.

sjmiller · Mar 13, 2007

Someone said:
Probably already mentioned, but the most basic objection against direct scaling is known as the cuadradic-cubic law. Basically, it says that keeping everything else constant if you increase a body's size, surface and variables that depend on surface (like muscle strenght) increase quadratically (that is, if you doble the size muscles would roughly be 4 times as strong) but the volume and variales that depend on volume's increase is cubic (so, for a doubling in size, you get an increase in weight by a factor of 8)

Right concept, but the maths are slightly off. What you want to look at in biometrics is the square-cube law. In general concepts, it means that when an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier. For example, if a cube with a side length of 1 foot were doubled in size, its volume would be 8 feet^3 and its surface area would be 24 feet^2. This law becomes a limiting factor when it comes to creature sizes. Land-based creatures can only reach a certain height before their mass requirement becomes so large as to be impractical.

Of course with aquatic creatures all bets are off.

Someone · Mar 13, 2007

sjmiller said:
Right concept, but the maths are slightly off. What you want to look at in biometrics is the square-cube law. In general concepts, it means that when an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier. For example, if a cube with a side length of 1 foot were doubled in size, its volume would be 8 feet^3 and its surface area would be 24 feet^2. This law becomes a limiting factor when it comes to creature sizes. Land-based creatures can only reach a certain height before their mass requirement becomes so large as to be impractical.

Of course with aquatic creatures all bets are off.

You're right; that's what I said (or wanted to say). English isn't my primary language, so I think I mistranslated some terms.

WayneLigon · Mar 13, 2007

Darklone said:
It's certain that giants couldn't look exactly like humans, yet it's equally certain that 2.4m humans don't have problems ... yet.

Actually, they usually do. Abnormally tall people have a whole host of physical problems from their affliction - and it really is an affliction. They tend to die young (the tallest man on record, 8'11.1", died before he was 25), have bone and joint problems, etc but that's usually because they do not grow proportionally - they grow that tall from chemical imbalances or genetic disorders, not anything natural.

Some science fiction novels have postulated what might have to happen for giant human-proportioned creatures to exist. Usually it requires a different bone structure than we happened to come up with, bones that not only are composed differently, but constructed differently as well. I seem to remember one book where their blood was much more acidic to be a more efficient oxygen transporter. The heart and blood vessels also have to have some significant modifications to push liquids up that far in the time needed.

nute · Mar 13, 2007

Thicker skeleton, much denser than a Medium-size creature. This would likely be true for most creatures of Huge or greater size, except for creatures whose very makeup is magical (Magical Beasts, Dragons, etc). Magic lets you violate things like the square-cube law.

Of course, that's assuming the laws of gravity function the same in a D&D universe. Obviously the laws of thermodynamics don't (WHERE exactly are you getting that energy to create a 30' fireball?), so gravity may function differently as well.

lukelightning · Mar 13, 2007

On a slight digression, I thought of a joke creature, a giant halfling, which is the size of a human. I guess fire giants are generally seen as the giant equivalant of dwarves.

kenobi65 · Mar 13, 2007

The jury is still out on whether the unusual growth that this Giant has experienced will lead to a shortened lifespan.

Pbartender · Mar 13, 2007

sjmiller said:
In general concepts, it means that when an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier.

A long time ago, I had a short essay that used this idea to (kind of pseudo-scientifically) explain why halflings seem to eat so much.

A long story short, the idea is that much of the caloric intake of any warm-blooded creture goes into simply maintaining that creature's body temperature. The primary means of losing body heat is through the skin, and so, ignoring other complicating factors for the moment, the amount of calories required to maintain body temperature should be roughly proportional to the surface area of skin.

So, we take a human and proportionally shrink him to one half his height to make a halfling. The amount of food he needs to maintain his body temperature decreases by the square (surface area of the skin) -- 1/2^2 = 1/4 -- but the amount of food his stomach can hold decreases by the cube (volume of the stomach) -- 1/2^3 = 1/8.

So, an average halfling needs only about one fourth as much food as a human to maintain his body temperature, but his stomach can only hold about one eighth as much food... Which means they'll need to eat twice as many meals as a typical human would, even though they only need a quarter the food a human needs overall.

Plus, it explains why one day's worth of trail rations (or water) for a small sized creature weighs only one-quarter the amount of trail rations for a day necessary for medium-sized creatures.

RangerWickett · Mar 13, 2007

This Sunday at dinner we attempted to calculate the amount of energy required to spontaneously create a human being. I think it was something like 9 x 10^18 joules. Fireballs are easy in comparison.

hafrogman · Mar 13, 2007

RangerWickett said:
This Sunday at dinner we attempted to calculate the amount of energy required to spontaneously create a human being.

I have GOT to know what leads to that kind of discussion. . . and what was for dinner?

I think the key to D&D giants is . . . it's magic.
And the key to real world giants is . . . when everyone else around you is 5'5", Yao Ming starts looking pretty darn gigantic.

What should Giants really look like?

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