D&D 5E 5th Edition and the "true exotic" races ...

Zardnaar · Feb 21, 2016

MechaPilot said:
No.

Also, Jeff Albertson, again man, any time you want to actually join the conversation, come on in and tell us what's so hilarious.

I'm saying getting the 3.5 classes into 4E was more important than including a new class and a 3.5 splat book class. 1 missing class maybe 2 at most (a'la Monk/Assassin 1E to 2E). I don't think that would have saved 4E as the power structure doomed it IMHO but it may have made a difference IDK.

MechaPilot · Feb 21, 2016

Zardnaar said:
I'm saying getting the 3.5 classes into 4E was more important than including a new class and a 3.5 splat book class. 1 missing class maybe 2 at most (a'la Monk/Assassin 1E to 2E). I don't think that would have saved 4E as the power structure doomed it IMHO but it may have made a difference IDK.

And I'm respectfully disagreeing. There are 3e classes that I have never seen played. I'm sure some people probably played them and loved the heck out of them. I truly am. However, when the books were on the table and people had their choice to make I have seen many more people choose warlocks and warlords over druids and bards.

Now maybe that's a regional thing. Maybe the great lakes area just loves locks and lords or druids and bards. Or maybe it's just the personal preferences of the people i knew and played with. I'm not sure. I'm just relating my personal experience and how it colors my opinion.

Mecheon · Feb 21, 2016

Zardnaar said:
I'm saying getting the 3.5 classes into 4E was more important than including a new class and a 3.5 splat book class. 1 missing class maybe 2 at most (a'la Monk/Assassin 1E to 2E). I don't think that would have saved 4E as the power structure doomed it IMHO but it may have made a difference IDK.

4E classes take up about 10 pages apiece

This wasn't the case in 3.5E because 4E classes actually have individual abilities put them, so that's why some where dropped. There wasn't enough room and removing Dragonborn and Tieflings would not have given you enough room.

4E's math was its biggest problem I, as a fan of 4E, would say.

Also, let's all just be brutally honest here? No one cared about gnomes until 4E came along.

NotActuallyTim · Feb 21, 2016

Mecheon said:
Also, let's all just be brutally honest here? No one cared about gnomes until 4E came along.

Imma fight u.

GNOME ILLUSIONIST GO!

Zardnaar · Feb 21, 2016

Mecheon said:
4E classes take up about 10 pages apiece

This wasn't the case in 3.5E because 4E classes actually have individual abilities put them, so that's why some where dropped. There wasn't enough room and removing Dragonborn and Tieflings would not have given you enough room.

4E's math was its biggest problem I, as a fan of 4E, would say.

Also, let's all just be brutally honest here? No one cared about gnomes until 4E came along.

That is because Gnomes had been in the 1E-3E PHB. The fact there was not enough room would be a prime example of what was wrong with the 4E power structure. Something like talent trees or 5E would have got the same result with a lot less page count.

MAth doesn't really matter for a D&D game. 3E had the worst math and it was one of the biggest selling version of D&D. Its not even in my top 3 best D&D list but there you have it. Not having the punters buy your edition is an even worse problem.

Nellisir · Feb 21, 2016

Mecheon said:
Also, let's all just be brutally honest here? No one cared about gnomes until 4E came along.

I made my first professional sale to TSR with a gnome-related article. So I cared.

Edit: And yeah, that dates me just a bit.

Zardnaar · Feb 21, 2016

Mecheon said:
4E classes take up about 10 pages apiece

This wasn't the case in 3.5E because 4E classes actually have individual abilities put them, so that's why some where dropped. There wasn't enough room and removing Dragonborn and Tieflings would not have given you enough room.

4E's math was its biggest problem I, as a fan of 4E, would say.

Also, let's all just be brutally honest here? No one cared about gnomes until 4E came along.

Cleric has 14 pages.
Fighter has 13
Paladin has 13
Ranger 12
Rogue 12
Warlock 13
Warlord 12
Wizard 15

Not a single 4E PHB class had 10 pages. More like 13 as an average. Each class had 2 paths for a total of 16 options. 5E IIRC has around 38 subclasses to pick from.

MechaPilot · Feb 21, 2016

Zardnaar said:
Cleric has 14 pages.
Fighter has 13
Paladin has 13
Ranger 12
Rogue 12
Warlock 13
Warlord 12
Wizard 15

Not a single 4E PHB class had 10 pages. More like 13 as an average. Each class had 2 paths for a total of 16 options. 5E IIRC has around 38 subclasses to pick from.

To be fair, they could have lessened that if they moved the epic level stuff to an additional book. I think that it was rather unreasonable to assume that a full 30 levels would get played through before a second book would be released.

In fact, if they chose to split the level progression into thirds, with each book going through 10 levels (sort of like a revamped version of the old boxed sets) they could have fit even more.

But, to be fair, 5e could have also given us much more if they didn't repeat material from the free basic PDF in the PHB.

Zardnaar · Feb 21, 2016

MechaPilot said:
To be fair, they could have lessened that if they moved the epic level stuff to an additional book. I think that it was rather unreasonable to assume that a full 30 levels would get played through before a second book would be released.

In fact, if they chose to split the level progression into thirds, with each book going through 10 levels (sort of like a revamped version of the old boxed sets) they could have fit even more.

But, to be fair, 5e could have also given us much more if they didn't repeat material from the free basic PDF in the PHB.

I don't think 4E should have had the epic levels full stop If they shunted the magic items to the DMG, cut the classes down to 20 levels saving 4 pages per class thats an extra 65 pages they could have played with. Thats the missing 3.5 classes+ races. I don't think it would have mattered to much as the main problem was the 4E classes as designed which even with no epic levels were still twice the size of say a new class in the 3.5 PHB2. When you have to design a who new power tree for something like the tempest fighter in Martial Power you might be doing something wrong. One class in 4E (wizard) takes up almost the entire class list in the BECMI rules Cyclopedia for 9 classes/races.

MechaPilot · Feb 21, 2016

Zardnaar said:
One class in 4E (wizard) takes up almost the entire class list in the BECMI rules Cyclopedia for 9 classes/races.

Are you including all of the spells the classes have access to in BECMI? Make an accurate comparison Zardnaar; include the descriptions of the spells and abilities the classes had access to in the page count and watch it balloon.

D&D 5E 5th Edition and the "true exotic" races ...

Zardnaar

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MechaPilot

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Mecheon

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NotActuallyTim

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Zardnaar

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Nellisir

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Zardnaar

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