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D&D 5E 5th Edition and the "true exotic" races ...

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The gnome, half-orc, druid, bard, and barbarian not being in the first 4E PHB was due to only one thing-- their already-planned-ahead production schedule for their upcoming books.

The first PH was released in the summer of '08, and they already knew the second PH was being released like 9 months later in the winter of '09. Between those two books, their first planned splatbook, Martial Power, was being released. It was for this reason that the first PH included 4 Martial power source classes, and only 2 Divine and Arcane... because they needed all four martial classes available at the top so that they could then support them all with the splatbook. Since they also knew the second PH was coming out in less than a year, they held back on the two classic Primal classes so that they could release all 4 of them at once to make a big splash with the second book. At that point, all that remained to be decided was whether or not to have the Bard be the second Arcane power source class. I imagine at that point they hadn't decided what role the Bard was going to be, but were pretty sure it wasn't going to be a Striker. Thus, they held the Bard back for PHII because they already had their two Leader classes, plus to give that second book more oomph as well.

At that point... since the Bard was being held back for PHII, they must have decided to hold back the Gnome too, seeing as how the Gnome was the quintessential Bard in 3.5 (what with its 'favored class' status.) And the same was said of the Half-Orc-- his favored class was the Barbarian, so since that class was being held back for PHII as well due to space reasons, moving the Half-Orc to support it also made all the sense in the world.

So this whole thing was done not to thumb the nose at players who liked those classical options, but merely because of their schedule of released the Martial Power splatbook PRIOR to Player's Handbook II. If that didn't happen, they wouldn't have needed to put all four Martial classes in the PH, and we might very well have seen the druid, bard, or barbarian included (and if so, the Gnome and Half-Orc to match.) WotC obviously didn't think holding off on these lesser-used options were going to be that bigt of an issue seeing as how they were all going to arrive in less than a year anyway. And for a game they thought was going to be played for 5+ years... the fact those few classical options weren't available right off the top was going to be a distant memory over the course of the game.

Of course, gamers being gamers... some people still cling to that perceived stab in the back like their lives depend on it.
 

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Jabborwacky

First Post
I will never get over the fact dragonborn do not have darkvision. Ever and forever :p

And I also find it kind of ironic that the ONE non-standard race that makes the most sense to introduce into D&D was left out as a DMG side note: The Eladrin. Elves are supposed to have a fey ancestor, so they actually have a strong reason to exist. If not, at least historically. Also, Aasimar, since they are a presence in Forgotten Realms source material.
 
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mellored

Legend
If a race had 2 arms, 2 legs, and 2 eyes, and 1 mouth, it's not really exotic. Which leaves the thri kreen as the only "true" exotic race (imo).
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I will never get over the fact dragonborn do not have darkvision. Ever and forever :p

In general I agree. I disliked the fact that you had to spend a bloody *feat* in 4e to pick it up, such a huge expenditure for such a small gain! If it had given something bigger as the secondary benefit--like Perception training instead of a meager +1!--it would've been a much more forgivable thing (in 4e, anyway).

Personally, I will never get over the fact that Dragonborn get exactly two features, a resistance and a breath, while Elves get so much stuff it almost fills a page: Darkvision, free Perception training (an excellent free skill!), advantage on charm STs and immunity to magic sleep, Trance, and the subrace benefits (everyone gets some free weapon profs; high elves get a cantrip, wood elves get a speed boost and hide-in-nature, and drow get enough good stuff that they had to take a penalty!) None of the cool fluffy features, like intimidation, extra healing, knowledge of history, or fighting better while bloodied when the chips are down made it into 5e, and that disappointed me severely. My 5e DM threw me a bone and let me have free History proficiency, which he considered a fully appropriate tweak.

If a race had 2 arms, 2 legs, and 2 eyes, and 1 mouth, it's not really exotic. Which leaves the thri kreen as the only "true" exotic race (imo).

If only more people felt that way.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
The only real problem that I see with 5th edition races is that there is no Warforged.

I do not mind how many Dragonborn or Tieflings of Gnomes there are.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
That was part of the problem of 4E. Vancian to me is a core part of the D&D experience. I do not find it any more silly than other forms of magic systems I have tried in other RPGs all of which have their own problems or are less powerful than D&D magic in the 1st place.

I do not even mind AEDU or variants of it like the 5E champion. I just did not like AEDU being on every class (martials with dailies wtf huh?) and the loss of ye olde vanacian casting. I don't mind tweaking vancian (Warlocks), spellpoints (2E Spells and Magic), and things like adding cantrips or getting some spells back on a short rest (wizards and land druids).

As I said though, each person defines the identity of D&D separately. For you, Vancian is part of it; for me, it's not even close to part of it. Despite that I didn't personally miss vancian being gone in 4e, I had wished that it were still an option for those who wanted to use it. As for martials with dailies, 3e had that as well: daily non-magical rages for barbarians, and the Rogue's defensive roll. 4e was much more of an outgrowth of 3e than a lot of people who liked 3e and hated 4e give it credit for being.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
[MENTION=6793093]Jeff Albertson[/MENTION]:
So you're not going to actually contribute to the discussion at all? Seems like a waste of time to just throw laughs and Xp around when you have the full opportunity to make your own post and speak your mind on the subject. But, it's your time to waste.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Now hold on there. I'm not saying they should abandon vancian magic. I mean, if it were my choice, then yes, I would say that (but not really. Since I'm the "options for everyone" girl I would have presented at least two models for people to use: vancian and most likely spell points would be the other one). But all I ever wanted was some kind of alternative presented for people that don't like vancian casting at all. We actually got that in 5e. So, yay for progress. And it didn't even make anyone rage quit the hobby (so far as I know).

I get that. I'm just saying that was a good example of a change that made D&D not feel like D&D for an awful lot of people. And in the core books, it's an essential component to making it feel like D&D. I know there will be people who disagree with that, but again, enough people said it was essential for them to bring it back.

Yeah, no offense intended to anyone but the default setting concept is just awful (and I'm not just saying that because I don't like FR). D&D has such a wealth of settings, pretending that any one of them is "more D&D" than the others does those settings a disservice and promotes an unnecessary divide among the fanbase.

I'm personally not a fan of a default setting either, although I certainly understand the need to have one. I'm guessing the majority of DMs don't make their own worlds, although that could also be because they probably don't even worry about the world outside of the immediate adventure. So they need some bare-bones setting at the very least.

Of course, they want to tie it into other products to sell more stuff, so it eventually makes sense to tie it into their most popular setting. Which means the Realms. I'm not a huge fan of that due to the game system violence that has been wrought upon the Realms because of that.

Outside of the core books though, what I was/am hoping for is more of the feel of the early era of (The) Dragon magazine. Part of this is my love of tweaking the rules, and part because 5e is so easy to tweak. I figured Dragon would be a great place for those sort of alternate rules, settings, monsters, races, and stuff like that. As it turns out, it looks like we'll be getting that with the Dungeon Master's Guild. I have a few things I'd like to put together, but need to look at how others are presenting ideas to fit the Realms.

Actually, I have a 32-page book with house rules and the background and history around Berdusk where this campaign is starting. Perhaps that's enough?

Ilbranteloth
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
I will never get over the fact dragonborn do not have darkvision. Ever and forever :p

And I also find it kind of ironic that the ONE non-standard race that makes the most sense to introduce into D&D was left out as a DMG side note: The Eladrin. Elves are supposed to have a fey ancestor, so they actually have a strong reason to exist. If not, at least historically. Also, Aasimar, since they are a presence in Forgotten Realms source material.

See, this is why Dragonborn and humans are best pals! No darkvision! They suffer together.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I will never get over the fact dragonborn do not have darkvision. Ever and forever :p

And I also find it kind of ironic that the ONE non-standard race that makes the most sense to introduce into D&D was left out as a DMG side note: The Eladrin. Elves are supposed to have a fey ancestor, so they actually have a strong reason to exist. If not, at least historically. Also, Aasimar, since they are a presence in Forgotten Realms source material.

Eladrin as an ancestor is fine. Changing elves to eladrin was so annoying though. That's the sort of thing that I found really problematic. Changing things for, the sake of changing things? I don't think they make sense as a sub race of elves either.

As far as including them in the PHB, they aren't really different enough to make it worthwhile. I think that they would have been better suited in a supplement or adventure set in the feywild.

Some things are worth changing. Developing a consistent rules mechanic makes sense. But certain parts of the game, no matter how much they may or may not make sense, are what make D&D unique. And this isn't new. Some examples go back to the early days. The 1st edition bard was so vastly different in how you joined the class. It just didn't make sense. Redesigning it with the same approach of the other classes made much more sense. The addition of Comeliness was another miss early on.

I get that some people like these rules, and that's fine. But they just didn't "fit".

Ilbranteloth
 
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