D&D 5E Assassinate and Greater Invisibility

DM-Rocco · Feb 19, 2020

Assassinate is easy, I get that in general. I'm wondering if you can use it on additional rounds of combat if you are hidden and your opponent can't see you thus maybe giving you "surprise" on a hit?

So I guess Invisibility in this addition allows people to deduce where you are unless you are "hidden". So for this scenario, let's assume we are on round third of combat and let's assume the Assassin has Greater Invisibility and has used stealth to "hide" so no one is aware of his true position. If he attacks again would that count as a "surprise" hit thus triggering Assassinate?

Would it change if he had Greater Invisibility, Silence, Mind Blank while floating with Winged Boots? I mean you are literally undetectable in pretty much every way at that point. Even if they know you are somewhere by being attacked from a previous round, wouldn't an attack from an unknown location count as "surprise" since you have no way of knowing where it is coming from?

Also, is the "Hiding" action an "action" in combat? If so, is there a way to hide as a bonus action?

NotAYakk · Feb 19, 2020

By RAW, surprise means "target is unaware there is combat starting". It does not mean "unaware of specific attacker".

DM-Rocco · Feb 19, 2020

NotAYakk said:
By RAW, surprise means "target is unaware there is combat starting". It does not mean "unaware of specific attacker".

Okay, where is it written that it means the target is unaware of combat? Please support that with a source.

Tales and Chronicles · Feb 19, 2020

p 189 of the PHB in the Suprise description.

To surprise a target you need to:

Beat its passive perception with all your party stealth checks (easier if you go solo, less risk of failing a check)
Beat its Initiative because its only surprised until after its first turn.

NotAYakk · Feb 19, 2020

DM-Rocco said:
Okay, where is it written that it means the target is unaware of combat? Please support that with a source.

Roll20 - Compendium and Rule Set Directory

Browse and reference your favorite RPG rule sets for systems including D&D, Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, and Cyberpunk RED.

roll20.net

Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a Bandit camp, springing from the trees to Attack them. A Gelatinous Cube glides down a dungeon Passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains Surprise over the other.

The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone Hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

If they notice each other, they aren't surprised. Surprise only occurs at the start of the encounter, and only on people who didn't see any enemies (stealth beat perception). The effects are restricted to the first round. Once that round is over, there is no mechanic for surprise to occur again.

Hence, surprise means "target is unaware there is combat starting". Being hidden/unseen is not the same as surprise; the rules for being hidden when you attack boil down to "you have advantage on your target".

Lucas Blackstone · Feb 19, 2020

Chapter 9, pg 189, PHB. " Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. "

Then the rules explain what explains the effects of surprise.

To answer the second part, there are several ways to hide as a bonus action. The most common is the class feature of the rogue class called Cunning Action.

DM-Rocco · Feb 19, 2020

vincegetorix said:
p 189 of the PHB in the Suprise description.

To surprise a target you need to:

Beat its passive perception with all your party stealth checks (easier if you go solo, less risk of failing a check)

Beat its Initiative because its only surprised until after its first turn.

Okay, I get the beat passive perception thingy, but unless I am blind I don't see it saying "because its only surprised until after its first turn."

It does say, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

I would argue that if you are invisible, and especially if you are hidden, invisible, mind blanked, silenced, floating on Winged Boots, that you are a threat not noticed and subjected to a surprise regardless of what round it is.

Stoutstien · Feb 19, 2020

Surprise should have been listed as a condition to make it easier to understand.

Tales and Chronicles · Feb 19, 2020

''If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.''

Surprised is like a special condition, if you will. I would have preferred if WotC put it in the condition list for easier reference.

Sacrosanct · Feb 19, 2020

DM-Rocco said:
Okay, I get the beat passive perception thingy, but unless I am blind I don't see it saying "because its only surprised until after its first turn."

It does say, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

I would argue that if you are invisible, and especially if you are hidden, invisible, mind blanked, silenced, floating on Winged Boots, that you are a threat not noticed and subjected to a surprise regardless of what round it is.

Let me put it in modern terms, as it's an analogy I'm most familiar with. When I was in the military and someone took a pot shot at my helicopter, the first time it was a surprise. But if they kept shooting, even though I didn't see them or couldn't detect them, I was aware I was being shot at, and took appropriate measures.

I think you're conflating not noticing with not seeing. You'll notice once you're under attack that you're being attacked.

D&D 5E Assassinate and Greater Invisibility

DM-Rocco

Explorer

NotAYakk

Legend

DM-Rocco

Explorer

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

NotAYakk

Legend

Roll20 - Compendium and Rule Set Directory

Lucas Blackstone

Explorer

DM-Rocco

Explorer

Stoutstien

lunk

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Sacrosanct

Legend

Similar Threads