D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

amethal said:

Some Americans seem to think freedom of speech was created by the First Amendment and seem genuinely unable to grasp my argument that it is a universal human right that is independent of what the US Constitution has to say on the subject.

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There are two meanings of the term "right".

1) That thing we believe people ought to be allowed to do, and 2) That which we actually put legal controls around to preserve.

What you believe is yours to believe. However, freedom of speech is not a universal human right by the second definition*. It is, in fact, a fairly new invention. For most of the history of human civilization around the globe, people did not have a legally protected right to free speech, and if a government power wanted to shut them up, they could do so without anything we'd consider to be repercussions.



* It would be reasonable to argue that there are no universal human rights by the second definition - that all rights only come from what legal controls we put in place and maintain, and without those controls, the concept of "rights" has little meaning.

amethal said:

Some Americans seem to think freedom of speech was created by the First Amendment and seem genuinely unable to grasp my argument that it is a universal human right that is independent of what the US Constitution has to say on the subject.

It's not just that they disagreed with me - I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, it happens all the time - but rather the words I use seem to make no sense to them.

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Art. 19, Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Of course, this tends to be more aspiration than enforceable.

FireLance said:

Anyway, here's one piece of unsolicited advice for any game designers who haven't been scared off and still want to use the "Have you eaten rice already?" greeting as a bit of flavour for an Asian-inspired fantasy culture or country. It's even based on a bit of Singapore history.

During the Second World War, rice was in short supply in Singapore, so most people had to rely on sweet potatoes as a staple. An Asian-inspired fantasy culture or country which went through a similar experience might thus be especially fond of using that greeting as a comforting affirmation that the hard times are over. I make no claim that this actually happened in Singapore, though.

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You can do the same thing for Korea. People that grew up during the Japanese occupation and then the Korean War tend to be shorter because there was not as much access to food, especially protein.

You could have one aggressive pseudo Asian power have been beaten back and then wrote about the consequences and that is the type of thing to note.

And for a throw away flavor paragraph, I don’t think I need a sensitivity reader.

Snarf Zagyg said:

He might not be wrong, but isn't this just another Westerner explaining things to you based upon an academic class, with no real exposure to your culture? After all, a westerner with Korean/Mexican ancestry does not have any special insight that any other westerner would have, and should not speak for all Asian cultures.

I kid, but only to make the point. You have had a lot of valuable input into the issues here, yet your input is diminished by some people because they claim you can't speak for the experience of Asian-Americans (as if that group is a monolithic whole). Nevertheless, others choose to speak to your experience based only on academic classes. Which is weird.

That said, I agree with you and think that true understanding of positions is best achieved by sharing opinions.

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I have had vigorous debates with people on the internet where I am lectured on solar power and I personally enabled a lot of what is in many places in the world.

I have been lectured by Asian appearing people about Asian things even though they have never actually been to Asia. I cannot claim to understand how they feel as an Asian minority living elsewhere (even though I was a minority growing up and lived in Asia for 8 years and even was a very visible minority there).

I will make an outsider observation - if you want to see more traditional Chinese family values, the decedents of the Chinese that settled on the islands near China but were somewhat cut-off and a minority cling to the older values.

Just like the French I speak (Quebec) is not the same as the French in France. We can understand each other fine, but you need to pay attention and ask for explanation.

I have already said that different people can take offense to different things and be genuinely offended without a call to action to me other than being polite.

As an RPG sourcebook, OA fails because it directly refers to actual thoughts about actual people in the real world - they list actual countries - and then clumsily expresses it as game rules.

If that same paragraph without the reference to being broadly applicable to Oriental society had instead described a new, non-human race , even if it borrowed from that monolithic view, it would be fine. I mean, my sentence construction there is not fine, but the use would be.

So I have zero issue with slapping a disclaimer on it today and having an honest conversation about the offense and even hurt it could cause. Panda-s1 has been more than polite as have others here explaining how they feel. I don’t think more than a disclaimer is needed and that is only needed to leave no doubt that the owners understand. In the end, Hasbro owns it and they can decide what to do about it.

Panda-s1 said:

and like, geez. I haven't played Curse of Strahd, but people talk about how it's a great adventure except for the part about Vistani. but you can just rewrite that small bit. OA is different, it's talking about culture at large and the setting it makes is like a huge caricature. I can't just cut out bits like honor or manners when everyone in the setting is supposed to be like this.

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I did. I went with the martial arts and magic and monsters and ignored the honor system and culture stuff that I did not care for. I also get though that your situation is yours.

if people want to own copies, then w/e, just understand why someone like me believes there's no merit in WotC to keep selling it after saying they're going to be more culturally sensitive.

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Sure, I disagree on the merit of it being available for sale but I see reasons for someone to take that position.

Panda-s1 said:

dude, if they're gonna describe the people of kara-tur like that what makes you think the rest of this stuff is gonna be treated any better?

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Owning OA, and having used the martial arts and magic and monsters. Tastes and triggers will vary though.

Panda-s1 said:

once upon a time I wanted to buy Oriental Adventures, I have a 1e collection and I knew that's where non-weapon proficiencies started. I'd find it from time to time at used book stores so I knew the stuff inside was pretty dated, but it was still a historical curiosity. still $15-20 is a lot for a book I'll basically never use, so I didn't buy it. now? it's skunked. I don't wanna buy it. maybe one day in the future, but it'll be more expensive than it's worth because of people who can't stand the idea of change.

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That is an unfortunate confluence of timing, wanting, and price/availability. It is $5 currently which is a more attractive price point for a historical curiosity, but it seems to be up in the air if it will be legally available one day in the future.

Umbran said:

* It would be reasonable to argue that there are no universal human rights by the second definition - that all rights only come from what legal controls we put in place and maintain, and without those controls, the concept of "rights" has little meaning.

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I disagree. By the second definition, human rights has NO meaning. (Or is a tautology - you only have the right to be protected from what you are actually protected from.)

So if we are even having a discussion about human rights, I assume we aren't using the second definition. Plenty of people have mentioned freedom of speech in this thread but what does OA have to do with Congress?

amethal said:

I disagree. By the second definition, human rights has NO meaning. (Or is a tautology - you only have the right to be protected from what you are actually protected from.)

So if we are even having a discussion about human rights, I assume we aren't using the second definition. Plenty of people have mentioned freedom of speech in this thread but what does OA have to do with Congress?

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Freedom of speech means two things in America, usually.

First is the technical meaning. You will often see this trotted out on the internet, always in a pedantic way, when someone is discussing what the legal contours are for freedom of speech. And despite what the text says, it isn't just Congress; it's any government action. So this can be anything from a libel suit (which is a court enforcement) to the public school saying you can't wear a particular message on your t-shirt.

On the other hand, most Americans (or at least, it used to be ...) also put a premium on the principles of free speech; that robust discourse is a value that we treasure, and that this allows better ideas in the marketplace of ideas to prosper. This is why, for example, when organizations like the AFA have targeted private companies in order to enforce their orthodoxy (including, but not limited to, suppression of the rights of LQBTQ Americans), an effective argument has traditionally been to appeal to the principles of free speech. Regardless of the lack of involvement of the government, we should want idea to flow forth and not be suppressed.

It's a tricky line; on the one hand, people can and should "vote with their wallets." If you find a company, or a company's products, offensive for any reason, you don't have to buy them; eventually, the lack of sales or collateral issues will cause the company to re-think their position. On the other hand, we need to make sure that we adhere to free speech principles, and don't allow companies (that are notoriously risk averse) to succumb to pressure and thus limit the very principles that we treasure.

As always, IMO etc.

Panda-s1 said:

and like, geez. I haven't played Curse of Strahd, but people talk about how it's a great adventure except for the part about Vistani. but you can just rewrite that small bit.

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Actually...

There has been discussion about a lot of negative aspects of Curse of Strahd. wundergeek posted some blog pages a few years ago on the unfortunate aspects of CoS; including racism, sexism, ableist views of madness, edgy violence against children, and abuse. Read them here.



Yet despite the numerous examples they points out, what is the takeaway?

Am I saying no one should play Curse of Strahd? No.

One of the things that got me to look into this again was the fact that a friend asked me about how feasible it would be to adapt CoS so that it didn’t have all the horrifying anti-Roma bits. And for all that I think there’s a lot of replication of terrible stereotypes, a modicum of preparation by a reasonably skilled GM would be sufficient to overcome this book’s shortcomings.

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Which is a far different takeaway than Kwan had made with OA.

Voadam said:

That is an unfortunate confluence of timing, wanting, and price/availability. It is $5 currently which is a more attractive price point for a historical curiosity, but it seems to be up in the air if it will be legally available one day in the future.

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no, don't twist it, it'll legally always be available. I'm not interested in owning a pdf copy.

Catolias said:

Great, but how do you do that? How do you translate a culture into a fantasy setting? And which culture? The dominant culture or a subculture? Which time period?

And how do you translate 15th century Rajasthani culture or 18th Century Hyderabad when you are a 15 year old kid in 21st Century Detroit or Belgrade? How do you translate a culture that is now extinct and be mindful (Incan or Aztec, for instance) when the only frame of references that remains are an invader’s voice.

Culture adapts and changes all the time. Our understanding of historic culture changes too. The only fixed culture is a dead culture.

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It's not that hard. When adapting a culture to a game, do your research to the best of your ability. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. After creating your game design and sharing it with the community, be open to criticism and be willing to change and edit your work.

The equivalent to Oriental Adventures is the publisher making a statement that they are aware the earlier work is highly problematic, and should they revisit it again, they will strive to do better. Which is exactly what WotC did, if a bit late to the party. I'd bet good money that's how Zeb Cook would look at it, although I think he's better off keeping his head down for a while. It does make me wonder if anyone has ever interviewed him on the issues of orientalism within Oriental Adventures.

I can't help but feel you are throwing up a strawman here. If you are a 15 year old designing game elements for your friends to play D&D . . . no one's coming after you for cultural appropriation or systemic racism . . . and your game design likely sucks anyway, because you're 15. My stuff from that era of my life stays in my secret notebooks! As you grow in knowledge, experience, and empathy . . . strive to do better.

If a culture is truly extinct, which few actually are, then it's unlikely the descendants of that culture are going to be upset with you. The Inca and Aztecs don't exist in the same form they did pre-colonial days, but we aren't ignorant of their cultures and their descendants still live in the same regions today, still practicing elements of culture passed down from those supposedly extinct days.