Pathfinder 2E Another Deadly Session, and It's Getting Old
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CapnZapp
Legend
On this subject:
Not for nothing, "surprise" in this game is almost entirely removed.
It isn't part of the rules AFAIK but I see adventures experimenting with stuff like "The two monsters are verbally fighting, so you get +4 to your initiative rolls". This is instructive, since it tells us that in this game, getting a whole extra round the way surprise is normally implemented in fantasy ttrpgs is considered far too much an advantage.
For instance, if you're talking to the mayor that you suspect is nasty shapechanging monster, you might plan to suddenly draw your weapon to stab her.
In PF2 I take it that the GM should resolve this by making you determine initiative using a Deception roll vs the monster's "Insight" (=Perception). If the monster acts first, this needs to be interpreted as it seeing your hostility in your eyes, or when you glance towards your co-conspirators. And even if you get a "drop" on the monster, that merely means you act first. Just like winning initiative in regular combat. There ARE monsters and heroes that gain something extra for attacking foes before they have taken their first action, but generally it simply means that foe's reactions, auras etc haven't come online just yet.
For most heroes rolling Deception is actually a nerf compared to "I just draw my weapon normally".
Sure the GM can decide to provide you with a bonus when and if you roll Initiative using a special skill, but that's up to each GM and not something the rules give you. Just being allowed to roll the special skill is painted out as advantage enough (which it rarely is in practice). Maybe those initiative rules were written before the decision to make Perception a secondary ability given to everybody instead of a skill you could suck at?
Not for nothing, "surprise" in this game is almost entirely removed.
It isn't part of the rules AFAIK but I see adventures experimenting with stuff like "The two monsters are verbally fighting, so you get +4 to your initiative rolls". This is instructive, since it tells us that in this game, getting a whole extra round the way surprise is normally implemented in fantasy ttrpgs is considered far too much an advantage.
For instance, if you're talking to the mayor that you suspect is nasty shapechanging monster, you might plan to suddenly draw your weapon to stab her.
In PF2 I take it that the GM should resolve this by making you determine initiative using a Deception roll vs the monster's "Insight" (=Perception). If the monster acts first, this needs to be interpreted as it seeing your hostility in your eyes, or when you glance towards your co-conspirators. And even if you get a "drop" on the monster, that merely means you act first. Just like winning initiative in regular combat. There ARE monsters and heroes that gain something extra for attacking foes before they have taken their first action, but generally it simply means that foe's reactions, auras etc haven't come online just yet.
For most heroes rolling Deception is actually a nerf compared to "I just draw my weapon normally".
Sure the GM can decide to provide you with a bonus when and if you roll Initiative using a special skill, but that's up to each GM and not something the rules give you. Just being allowed to roll the special skill is painted out as advantage enough (which it rarely is in practice). Maybe those initiative rules were written before the decision to make Perception a secondary ability given to everybody instead of a skill you could suck at?
glass
(he, him)
I have been disagreeing with you quite a lot in these threads, but I think I am with you on this one. I really have not got my head around the new surprise rules (or lack thereof). Maybe once I am used to it it will make more sense, but so far I am not impressed.
_
glass.
I agree there’s a balancing effect (same reasoning as to why group initiative is problematic), but I think one could argue that it was also an attempt at simplification. The idea seems to be that you just switch to encounter mode when two opposing sides come in contact and then continue resolving things round-by-round. If you successfully Avoid Notice, then you are hidden (or undetected on a crit), and creatures have to come Seek you out. Your “surprise” then becomes what you make of that situation rather than getting a free half turn to beat up the opposing side. This is in contrast to other systems where you start the encounter after the surprise is sprung.
At least, that’s the theory. I’m still getting the hang of timing when to drop into encounter mode. My natural tendency is to do it like other games instead of as soon as the two sides come in contact. The problem I see with the presumedly intended approach is switching to encounter mode is a big flag to players that a fight is coming. Instead of continuing along as they were doing, they’re going to start looking for the enemies that have to be around somewhere.
I’ve noticed this with using Avoid Notice to roll Stealth instead of Perception for initiative. Because of the automatic progression of Perception, it’s almost always the better skill to roll unless you’ve been investing in Stealth to keep it boosted (and no one but the “sneaky” characters really bothers to do that).
Dexterity is usually a really good ability score already in D&D-likes, so separating Initiative from it was a good change. I think just making it use Wisdom with a note the GM can change it if the situation calls for it (e.g., Charisma in a social situation or Dexterity for a chase) would have been enough. It’s not like you even avoid rolling Stealth twice in the Avoid Notice case. You have one roll for your initiative and another to determine your condition (because the latter is a secret check, presumably)!
CapnZapp
Legend
You only roll a single Stealth check when you start an encounter by Avoid Notice.
Unless the GM has other ideas, of course (the rule says "usually").
You use this single number both to put you somewhere in the Initiative order, and to compare to the passive Perception of each foe for purposes of them noticing you or not. You can totally lose initiative and still succeed at stealth (maybe you rolled well, but the monster rolled better). Conversely you can go first, but not successfully hide (maybe you rolled low but the monster rolled worse).
In most cases, there are no bonuses to be gained by either going first or attacking from stealth. Only characters and monsters with specific abilities gain anything. There are zero general rules of the "you gain advantage when attacking from stealth" sort, or "you're flat-footed until you have taken your first action". If you can't point to an ability specifically granting you some sort of bonus, there isn't one to be had.
I'm getting the definite impression the idea is that you go into encounter mode when every creature is on the battle board, and combat can ensue right away.
And yes, this is in sharp contrast to other D&D games where it feels natural to do things turn-by-turn as soon as that feels right. Here the transition from Exploration to Encounters feel wonky if you're dropped into turn-by-turn mode before the fight has started; i.e. rolling Initiative with no fight.
Of course you can run the game otherwise, but official adventures clearly weigh towards the "and the monsters are right in your face - roll initiative!" where the idea that you would want to avoid just that and keep the beasties at a distance as long as possible seems to just not occurred to anyone involved.
Unless the GM has other ideas, of course (the rule says "usually").
You use this single number both to put you somewhere in the Initiative order, and to compare to the passive Perception of each foe for purposes of them noticing you or not. You can totally lose initiative and still succeed at stealth (maybe you rolled well, but the monster rolled better). Conversely you can go first, but not successfully hide (maybe you rolled low but the monster rolled worse).
In most cases, there are no bonuses to be gained by either going first or attacking from stealth. Only characters and monsters with specific abilities gain anything. There are zero general rules of the "you gain advantage when attacking from stealth" sort, or "you're flat-footed until you have taken your first action". If you can't point to an ability specifically granting you some sort of bonus, there isn't one to be had.
I'm getting the definite impression the idea is that you go into encounter mode when every creature is on the battle board, and combat can ensue right away.
And yes, this is in sharp contrast to other D&D games where it feels natural to do things turn-by-turn as soon as that feels right. Here the transition from Exploration to Encounters feel wonky if you're dropped into turn-by-turn mode before the fight has started; i.e. rolling Initiative with no fight.
Of course you can run the game otherwise, but official adventures clearly weigh towards the "and the monsters are right in your face - roll initiative!" where the idea that you would want to avoid just that and keep the beasties at a distance as long as possible seems to just not occurred to anyone involved.
My PCs all Avoid Notice and then say: I want to roll Perception instead because it’s better, and I respond: then you’re not going to be very hidden, are you?
It’s worded awkwardly, but if you are hidden, the target is flat-footed to you.
I don’t think fighting necessarily starts, but that sounds about right. If the party is trying to stage an ambush, you wouldn’t start the fight when the ambush sprung by when the enemy comes into the scene. You’d have them do their thing unaware of the ambush, and then the PCs would spring the ambush on the designated signal.
Yep. I think in most other games you’d e.g., start when the above ambush sprung. On one hand, that makes sense given the absence of a discrete surprise round. On the other, it potentially tips the PCs off that an encounter is coming even though nothing is on screen yet. You could do secret Initiative checks in that situation, but that’s definitely not the norm in PF2.
I guess you could have them roll initiative at random times just to keep them on their toes. “So you go to use the chamber pot, roll initiative.” Have them believing all the chamber pots are mimics in short order.
If the PCs know or suspect there are monsters in the next room, they can Avoid Notice as they approach. When the encounter starts, everyone Delays but the slowest one in the initiative order, who kicks in the door. The rest of the party returns to the initiative order at the end of the kicker’s turn, and they rush inside to beat up the monsters for their treasure.
I swear I can remember having arguments over whether you got surprise when kicking in the door. Did Paizo accidentally (almost*) fix it?
* The asterisk is because you can only return to the initiative order at the end of someone’s turn, so you can’t guarantee a bad enough result that you go after all the monsters (and consequently get a ‘free’ turn beating them up). If they survive, they get to return the favor, but the party should be able to drop a creature or two and tilt things in their favor. Also, extensive footnotes are bad for jokes.
On sidenote: I'm annoyed about lost mine of phandelver, I kinda feel like its bit over hyped as intro adventure 
But yeah, I don't have experience of enemies always having 10 feet distance from PCs at start of encounter? my experience is that they tend to have at least 30 feet distance meaning they have to spend two actions to get close(or pcs win and moves two actions closer, hits enemy and then enemy is free to use all three actions however they want )
But yeah, I don't miss surprise rounds, I kinda do actually prefer the "how you start the encounter determines what skill you use for iniative" rather than the "you get one extra turn to murder enemies where they can't react", since latter usually just makes players try under every circumstance get surprise somehow
But yeah, I don't have experience of enemies always having 10 feet distance from PCs at start of encounter? my experience is that they tend to have at least 30 feet distance meaning they have to spend two actions to get close(or pcs win and moves two actions closer, hits enemy and then enemy is free to use all three actions however they want
)But yeah, I don't miss surprise rounds, I kinda do actually prefer the "how you start the encounter determines what skill you use for iniative" rather than the "you get one extra turn to murder enemies where they can't react", since latter usually just makes players try under every circumstance get surprise somehow
CapnZapp
Legend
Individual characters can definitely benefit from Avoid Notice/Stealth.
But in a group of four or five heroes some are bound to roll badly, and if even one party member doesn't even have Stealth...
In the end, my players have stopped bothering with ambushes and stealth, since it doesn't provide benefits commensurate with the difficulty of pulling it off.
Individual characters can still tell me "I'm going to Avoid Notice whenever I can, so consider me rolling Stealth for Perception as the default". But again, that just means a single character is hidden. The monsters still notice the group, so combat still starts the regular way.
But in a group of four or five heroes some are bound to roll badly, and if even one party member doesn't even have Stealth...
In the end, my players have stopped bothering with ambushes and stealth, since it doesn't provide benefits commensurate with the difficulty of pulling it off.
Individual characters can still tell me "I'm going to Avoid Notice whenever I can, so consider me rolling Stealth for Perception as the default". But again, that just means a single character is hidden. The monsters still notice the group, so combat still starts the regular way.
CapnZapp
Legend
But more in general, official APs don't really seem to cater to the group that wants to stay at range and just kill off everything before it can reach them. If you start at the edge of a battle map and the room where the monsters are is 6 squares away, there just isn't going to be any "free shots".
Even more in general, the whole notion of "free shots" is exactly what Paizo has removed as a concept. Both from ambushes and in general.
In order for a Severe encounter to actually be "severe", the expectation is that the heroes are just kind of bumbling into the encounter - if the monster rolls highest on Initiative, it is expected to be able to just charge a hero and bite him.
This ties back to the earlier argument "that's exactly why you're having problems with Medicine not being strong enough".
My argument is that "Medicine isn't powerful enough given what a Moderate or Severe encounter is".
Their argument seems to be "Medicine is powerful enough if you just ensure a Moderate encounter is just a Low encounter" which to me seems backwards. If you first circumvent the challenge, sure healing can come across as adequate, but what if the healing was appropriate for the challenge in the first place?!
Even more in general, the whole notion of "free shots" is exactly what Paizo has removed as a concept. Both from ambushes and in general.
In order for a Severe encounter to actually be "severe", the expectation is that the heroes are just kind of bumbling into the encounter - if the monster rolls highest on Initiative, it is expected to be able to just charge a hero and bite him.
This ties back to the earlier argument "that's exactly why you're having problems with Medicine not being strong enough".
My argument is that "Medicine isn't powerful enough given what a Moderate or Severe encounter is".
Their argument seems to be "Medicine is powerful enough if you just ensure a Moderate encounter is just a Low encounter" which to me seems backwards. If you first circumvent the challenge, sure healing can come across as adequate, but what if the healing was appropriate for the challenge in the first place?!
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