Level Up (A5E) Just a thought: Give druids Find Familiar.

Faolyn · Oct 23, 2020

@tetrasodium, it sounds like your groups care more about optimization than roleplay. I can't imagine any of my players getting upset about not putting a beloved pet in danger, especially one with whom they share a psychic bond. Getting killed hurts, even if it's not permanent.

And let's just assume that you're right and the familiar will go out instead of the druid. How is this a problem?

Anyway, rangers would have a completely different variety of animal companion--definitely more powerful than the typically 1-hp familiar a wizard or druid would get.

tetrasodium · Oct 23, 2020

Jessica Wolfman said:
@tetrasodium, it sounds like your groups care more about optimization than roleplay. I can't imagine any of my players getting upset about not putting a beloved pet in danger, especially one with whom they share a psychic bond. Getting killed hurts, even if it's not permanent.

And let's just assume that you're right and the familiar will go out instead of the druid. How is this a problem?

Anyway, rangers would have a completely different variety of animal companion--definitely more powerful than the typically 1-hp familiar a wizard or druid would get.

Prior to covid I ran a game of my own in addition to a regular AL game, with AL you tend to see all the negatives shamelessly thrust front & center to a more profound degree. With that said rogue/druid/ranger(Alice):"We should scout, let me sneak ahead[in wildshape]">$guyWithOwl(bob):"that's a good idea but you shouldn't risk it because my owl is disposable">$ThirdPlayer:"Yea Bob's got a good point alice, it's stupid to risk taking damage getting stuck & so on while the owl is still alive".

Can bob be blamed for "caring more about optimization than roleplay" for wanting to use his cool flavorful familiar that has literally almost no other useful function other than tenuously justified help action spamming* in that example?

. * gm: "Sure you can try, what is your owl doing to help bob against the $monster?"

Faolyn · Oct 23, 2020

tetrasodium said:
Can bob be blamed for "caring more about optimization than roleplay" for wanting to use his cool flavorful familiar that has literally almost no other useful function other than tenuously justified help action spamming* in that example?

You weren't talking about "using a cool familiar," you were talking about chiding the rogue for scouting instead of using the familiar. Those are two very different things.

tetrasodium · Oct 23, 2020

Jessica Wolfman said:
You weren't talking about "using a cool familiar," you were talking about chiding the rogue for scouting instead of using the familiar. Those are two very different things.

Which is why my example literally does that just before the question you quoted from that post. For a recap "rogue/druid/ranger(Alice):"We should scout, let me sneak ahead[in wildshape]">$guyWithOwl(bob):"that's a good idea but you shouldn't risk it because my owl is disposable">$ThirdPlayer:"Yea Bob's got a good point alice, it's stupid to risk taking damage getting stuck & so on while the owl is still alive"." Find familiar doesn't really have a "different thing" other than invading someone else's niche with a disposable ritual spell as worded is the issue.

CleverNickName · Oct 23, 2020

I doubt anyone in our group would ever consider their familiars to be "disposable." I know that they are made of fairy dust and only cost 10gp to make, but they also have cutesy pet names, and our DM gives them little personalities and mannerisms that flesh them out. They are more like minor NPCs than anything else.

My wizard has a tawny owl named Bishop who loves to stuff grass and twigs into the hood of my cloak (I think he's building a nest?) He brings us little flowers and shiny rocks to say 'thank you' for little favors...or he'll bring dead insects or poop on us to show his displeasure. He screeches when he senses trouble (or gets bored), and paces back and forth on my shoulder when he's anxious. The party loves and respects Bishop as our unofficial mascot. Sure, I could send him into dangerous areas as a scout, or have him deliver touch spells to monsters on the battlefield, but I rarely do. It's not worth the dead bugs and poop stains.

There was also our ranger's falcon familiar, Parliament. (Ritual Caster feat at first level.) He would deliver messages and scout the area for trouble, and would snap to attention and salute with his wing whenever the ranger gave him an order. During downtime, the two of them would perform in falconry contests to earn a bit of coin. He was also a literal wing-man for the ranger, always trying to set him up with attractive people they met around town.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the Find Familiar spell is as big of an issue as you want it to be. Sure, you can use this spell to create a disposable creature that you can summon and destroy on a whim, if you want. But you can also use this spell to flesh out your character concept or backstory, or to add interest or tension to an otherwise boring scene. I think the issues you are describing have more to do with player expectation than the wording of the spell.

Faolyn · Oct 23, 2020

tetrasodium said:
Which is why my example literally does that just before the question you quoted from that post. For a recap "rogue/druid/ranger(Alice):"We should scout, let me sneak ahead[in wildshape]">$guyWithOwl(bob):"that's a good idea but you shouldn't risk it because my owl is disposable">$ThirdPlayer:"Yea Bob's got a good point alice, it's stupid to risk taking damage getting stuck & so on while the owl is still alive"." Find familiar doesn't really have a "different thing" other than invading someone else's niche with a disposable ritual spell as worded is the issue.

Uh... that pretty much made my point. You were talking about chiding the rogue for doing something because you have a "disposable" familiar. Familiars have tons of RP function, as @CleverNickName brought up.

If the groups you are DMing for are using familiars as nothing else than a disposable spell, maybe you should RP the familiar a bit more. When it dies, the wizard could feel the familiar's pain and fear. No mechanical penalties, but it might get it through their heads that a familiar can be more than just a mobile bundle of hit points.

Also, it's fully acceptable to have overlap in abilities among the party members, or for characters to attempt to do things they don't actually have skill in doing. A familiar can possibly go places a rogue can't, but the familiar can't do nearly any of the things the rogue can do.

(Also, FYI, it's very hard to read your text when you sprinkle it with random symbols like >$ or use ampersands instead of spelling out the word and.)

tetrasodium · Oct 23, 2020

CleverNickName said:
I doubt anyone in our group would ever consider their familiars to be "disposable." I know that they are made of fairy dust and only cost 10gp to make, but they also have cutesy pet names, and our DM gives them little personalities and mannerisms that flesh them out. They are more like minor NPCs than anything else.

My wizard has a tawny owl named Bishop who loves to stuff grass and twigs into the hood of my cloak (I think he's building a nest?) He brings us little flowers and shiny rocks to say 'thank you' for little favors...or he'll bring dead insects or poop on us to show his displeasure. He screeches when he senses trouble (or gets bored), and paces back and forth on my shoulder when he's anxious. The party loves and respects Bishop as our unofficial mascot. Sure, I could send him into dangerous areas as a scout, or have him deliver touch spells to monsters on the battlefield, but I rarely do. It's not worth the dead bugs and poop stains.

There was also our ranger's falcon familiar, Parliament. (Ritual Caster feat at first level.) He would deliver messages and scout the area for trouble, and would snap to attention and salute with his wing whenever the ranger gave him an order. During downtime, the two of them would perform in falconry contests to earn a bit of coin. He was also a literal wing-man for the ranger, always trying to set him up with attractive people they met around town.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the Find Familiar spell is as big of an issue as you want it to be. Sure, you can use this spell to create a disposable creature that you can summon and destroy on a whim, if you want. But you can also use this spell to flesh out your character concept or backstory, or to add interest or tension to an otherwise boring scene. I think the issues you are describing have more to do with player expectation than the wording of the spell.

my big gripe centers around the fact that there's nothing else of merit to them that would encourage that kind of stuff. I used to see that kinda stuff pretty often in 3.5 & PF where it getting killed was an actual loss but in 5ethey serve one purpose & the spell bends over backwards to ensure that. the 10gp cost quickly becomes a rounding error with 5e's economy & fixing the economy so that 10gp is meaningful is a nightmare because every spell has component costs baked in one by one that you need to track down rather than a list of components that can just rework the table on