D&D 5E How fantastic are natural 1's?

All this talk of probability of critical fumbles is off topic. Yes, a great swordsman who fails 5% of the time wouldn't be a great swordsman.

But you need to look at it a different way. In combat many things are going on (rarely a one on one affair), it isn't just that the swordsman screwed up and failed (luck plays a part in these battles, good luck for the target in this case) it could be narrated that while his strike was on target for that chink in the armor below the armpit, but his friend the dwarf who is fighting along side him and attacked immediately before cause the opponent to grunt in pain bringing his arms down at the last second causing the sword strike to deflect off his armor instead perhaps being accidentally re-directed into his friend the dwarf. The swordsman did nothing wrong here, but in combat stuff happens that was not planned.

In my games I allow/expect my players to narratively decide what happens on a critical (failure or success). They can choose to be as punitive or not as they see fit.

A few games ago we had a cleric who being spooked after being woken up by the roar of a bear coming into camp, did what he always did when startled, up-cast a guiding bolt before getting out of his sleeping bag. He rolled a Natural 1. Based on his positioning and his paladin friends positioning compared to the bear. He narrated, that his hands got tangled up in the sleeping bag as he cast his spell through the sleeping bag destroying it and hitting his paladins shield from the back side. He also rolled nearly max damage so the shield was bent and ruined and nearly ripped from his arm.

All of this is the players choice. In my opinion it has worked well.
So the caster fumbles and suffers no direct penalty. The front line fighter is penalized instead.

Sounds typical ... ranged attacks rarely harm the one that fumbles. In your other example what if there is no one close?

Anyway, if it works for you, great. I don't want to ever deal with it again and wouldn't play a game that uses it.
 

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Just a note on my previous post.

I think the example of the caster could have worked exactly the same with the modification that the paladin's shield took no damage.

So the paladin can still give the caster naughty word "Dude! Watch where you're casting!" even though there was no in game penalty (other than the miss).

At least that's how I handle this kind of stuff. Just as fun, no mechanical penalty affecting one class over another, we throw it in as flavor when it adds to the game.

P.S. A guiding bolt can't by the rules target an object.
 

All this talk of probability of critical fumbles is off topic. Yes, a great swordsman who fails 5% of the time wouldn't be a great swordsman.

But you need to look at it a different way. In combat many things are going on (rarely a one on one affair), it isn't just that the swordsman screwed up and failed (luck plays a part in these battles, good luck for the target in this case) it could be narrated that while his strike was on target for that chink in the armor below the armpit, but his friend the dwarf who is fighting along side him and attacked immediately before cause the opponent to grunt in pain bringing his arms down at the last second causing the sword strike to deflect off his armor instead perhaps being accidentally re-directed into his friend the dwarf. The swordsman did nothing wrong here, but in combat stuff happens that was not planned.
This is a GREAT narration for a normal failure. I don't understand why a fumble needs to be inserted. A one in combat is already an automatic failure.
In my games I allow/expect my players to narratively decide what happens on a critical (failure or success). They can choose to be as punitive or not as they see fit.

A few games ago we had a cleric who being spooked after being woken up by the roar of a bear coming into camp, did what he always did when startled, up-cast a guiding bolt before getting out of his sleeping bag. He rolled a Natural 1. Based on his positioning and his paladin friends positioning compared to the bear. He narrated, that his hands got tangled up in the sleeping bag as he cast his spell through the sleeping bag destroying it and hitting his paladins shield from the back side. He also rolled nearly max damage so the shield was bent and ruined and nearly ripped from his arm.

All of this is the players choice. In my opinion it has worked well.
If I were the paladin's player, I'd probably be a tad upset that the cleric's bad roll meant I lost my gear. This would have run afoul of my PVP rule, which is that if one PC wants to do something to another, it's the call of the target as to what happens, with the condition that things can't then harm the first PC -- otherwise we'd be in a loop.
 

This is a GREAT narration for a normal failure. I don't understand why a fumble needs to be inserted. A one in combat is already an automatic failure.
True.

Fumbles do exist in 5e (and prior editions). If you roll a "1", you miss regardless of your to-hit total. You fumbled, and that caused you to miss an attack that may have been successful otherwise. The end.

... unless you're a halfling, in which case your fumble inadvertently puts you in an advantageous position, leaving your opponent open for another strike. Lucky you!

But I can understand that some people find unexpected (and unplanned) "naughty word happens" situations appealing. the attack roll is the most common denominator to all monsters and all PC classes in combat, so it seems natural to have those moments triggered by natural 1s. Except it isn't the best common denominator because 1) some attacks (i.e. fireball) don't use use attack rolls and 2) some classes (i.e. the fighter) are more susceptible to trigger "naughty word happens" moments. That has been discussed for what , 10 pages worth of posts now?

Which leaves me reflecting on two things, assuming one is willing to embrace fumbles in good faith; first, how/when to trigger fumbles and second, what do these "naughty word happens moments" mean, especially in a spirit that doesn't necessarily involve dubious slapstick humour.

[edit] Bonus question: Do "fumbles" necessarily have to affect the triggering character if fumbles are seen as "naughty word happens" moments?
 
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Yes, I do expect different from a mechanic touted as protecting the better skilled. You ignored action surge in your evaluation, which is why you got a different number. Add in two action surges to each, on the assumption there's 1 short rest. Technically, you should add in four for the final one (I didn't), due to the 17th level rider on action surge being able to be used twice per short rest, which would mean the 17th+ level fighter has the highest chance to fumble and confirm of any level at 12.2%
If the better skilled attacker makes the same number of attacks as the lesser skilled attacker, they are better. You want a system where a better skilled attacker who is attacking more often (thus exposing himself to risk) is still better than an attacker who is less skilled but makes just one attack.

Also, I didn't ignore action surge. You said 10 rounds, which with your +4 attacks per surge twice was 48 attacks, the same as I used. This was your scenario--288 attacks over a 6-day period.

The rest of your post are increasing complex ways to limit the impact of a fumble rule, to the point of asking what it's supposed to be adding for the effort involved? Why do I now need paragraphs of rules (short paragraphs, but still) to define a fumble -- how it happens and what happens? What is being added here? Design wise, when you need this many saving constructions on a rule, it's time to look at the rule and consider if it needs to be there. I'm sure this isn't a consideration for you, as I think your house-rule document must rival the PHB at this point given your posts here, but unless a group really likes that many layers of rules, is this a valuable thing to save? It's a lot of rules just to inject farce -- surely there's a better way to do that.
I did this because it is what you wanted, isn't it? You complained about the odds, and I offered ways to mitigate the odds even more. I don't need "this many saving constructions on a rule". ;)

We are perfectly happy with our fumble system:

1605217917008.png


I just had our DM send me the current version we've been using for a while. I will admit, my bad: I thought you made the disaster check if you failed the fumble check, but you only roll for a disaster if the fumble check is also a nat 1.

And FYI, our current house-rules are only 2 pages. :p

Here they are:
1605217767488.png

1605217803616.png


Hardly rivals the PHB, does it? :D
 

As to my examples, you are missing the fact that the players chose what happens and the consequences. Including the damaged shield, that was chosen by the player whose shield got hit. Not me the GM or the other player. The other player only decreed that he hit the inside of the paladins shield. The damage roll was at the same time as the to hit (Roll20) so it was immediately known. I think he was wanting to craft his own shield and they were on their way back to town anyway so he wasn't really out of luck with no shield for long.

The players sometimes also just say I missed. Or my footing was bad and I slipped as I swung my sword and just missed as I caught my balance.

There isn't a fumble roll, or mandate, they decide what happens or not. They get to cinematically describe their critical successes as well.

FYI - I do use the same PVP rule when the target gets to decide success, failure, or roll.
 

If the better skilled attacker makes the same number of attacks as the lesser skilled attacker, they are better. You want a system where a better skilled attacker who is attacking more often (thus exposing himself to risk) is still better than an attacker who is less skilled but makes just one attack.
Okay, let's look at this claim. A 20th level rogue has the same attack bonus the fighter does, presumably. They make 1 attack a round. Is the rogue as skilled in martial combat as the fighter? Because, if we're going with the above, the answer must be yes. Given bounded accuracy, increasing the fighter's attack bonus isn't feasible within the design parameters, so how do you represent the fighter being better, more skilled even, at martial pursuits? Oh, yes, by increasing the number of attacks at that attack bonus. Your argument here is divorcing the exact class feature meant to represent more skill and moving it over into the penalty column.
Also, I didn't ignore action surge. You said 10 rounds, which with your +4 attacks per surge twice was 48 attacks, the same as I used. This was your scenario--288 attacks over a 6-day period.
You did, actually, not include the action surge attacks. I can tell because I get your numbers running 10, 20, 30, 40 at 0.01, 0.0025, 0.0025, and 0.0025 chance respectfully (9.5%, 4.8%, 7.2%, and 9.5%). Regardless, that's not very important, because the same pattern holds, if at a lower percentage due to the omission.

I did this because it is what you wanted, isn't it? You complained about the odds, and I offered ways to mitigate the odds even more. I don't need "this many saving constructions on a rule". ;)

No, I never asked you to reduce the percentages.
We are perfectly happy with our fumble system:

View attachment 128413

I just had our DM send me the current version we've been using for a while. I will admit, my bad: I thought you made the disaster check if you failed the fumble check, but you only roll for a disaster if the fumble check is also a nat 1.

And FYI, our current house-rules are only 2 pages. :p

Here they are:
View attachment 128410
View attachment 128411

Hardly rivals the PHB, does it? :D
No, it does not. I honestly expected more houserules from you given the number of houserule discussions you've started. I stand corrected.

However, I note that a lot of the problems you've come here to discuss appear self-inflicted -- half of your house rules are massive power-ups to PCs, and the other half (that hit be a crit rule, woof!) are debuffs to keep the first half in check. Not my cuppa, but, hey, if it's what you guys like, more power to you!
 

All this talk of probability of critical fumbles is off topic. Yes, a great swordsman who fails 5% of the time wouldn't be a great swordsman.

But you need to look at it a different way. In combat many things are going on (rarely a one on one affair), it isn't just that the swordsman screwed up and failed (luck plays a part in these battles, good luck for the target in this case) it could be narrated that while his strike was on target for that chink in the armor below the armpit, but his friend the dwarf who is fighting along side him and attacked immediately before cause the opponent to grunt in pain bringing his arms down at the last second causing the sword strike to deflect off his armor instead perhaps being accidentally re-directed into his friend the dwarf. The swordsman did nothing wrong here, but in combat stuff happens that was not planned.

In my games I allow/expect my players to narratively decide what happens on a critical (failure or success). They can choose to be as punitive or not as they see fit.

A few games ago we had a cleric who being spooked after being woken up by the roar of a bear coming into camp, did what he always did when startled, up-cast a guiding bolt before getting out of his sleeping bag. He rolled a Natural 1. Based on his positioning and his paladin friends positioning compared to the bear. He narrated, that his hands got tangled up in the sleeping bag as he cast his spell through the sleeping bag destroying it and hitting his paladins shield from the back side. He also rolled nearly max damage so the shield was bent and ruined and nearly ripped from his arm.

All of this is the players choice. In my opinion it has worked well.
What game mechanic do you use to represent the chance of the cleric fumbling when casting a spell that uses saving throws rather than attack rolls?
 

As to my examples, you are missing the fact that the players chose what happens and the consequences. Including the damaged shield, that was chosen by the player whose shield got hit. Not me the GM or the other player. The other player only decreed that he hit the inside of the paladins shield. The damage roll was at the same time as the to hit (Roll20) so it was immediately known. I think he was wanting to craft his own shield and they were on their way back to town anyway so he wasn't really out of luck with no shield for long.

The players sometimes also just say I missed. Or my footing was bad and I slipped as I swung my sword and just missed as I caught my balance.

There isn't a fumble roll, or mandate, they decide what happens or not. They get to cinematically describe their critical successes as well.

FYI - I do use the same PVP rule when the target gets to decide success, failure, or roll.
Ah, cool, you just use 1's as a trigger to invite player narration. No issues with that.
 

As to my examples, you are missing the fact that the players chose what happens and the consequences. Including the damaged shield, that was chosen by the player whose shield got hit. Not me the GM or the other player. The other player only decreed that he hit the inside of the paladins shield. The damage roll was at the same time as the to hit (Roll20) so it was immediately known. I think he was wanting to craft his own shield and they were on their way back to town anyway so he wasn't really out of luck with no shield for long.

The players sometimes also just say I missed. Or my footing was bad and I slipped as I swung my sword and just missed as I caught my balance.

There isn't a fumble roll, or mandate, they decide what happens or not. They get to cinematically describe their critical successes as well.

FYI - I do use the same PVP rule when the target gets to decide success, failure, or roll.
That wasn't clear, thanks for the clarification.
 

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