D&D General What is the appeal of Tolkien fantasy races?

In general I think I think it is arguable there are more anthropomorphs than elves and dwarves in cartoons. I would think there are more instances of ninja turtles than dwarves for instance.

For sure, if we are considering other form's of media when looking at what motivates someone for a race choice in Fantasy.

I mean I grew up watching Thundercats, and TMNT, and Secret of NIMH and many more, but those are not what jump out when I think of Fantasy.

I will openly admit though, that what hooked me with Fantasy, was Dragonlance. I had tons of those books.
 

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For sure, if we are considering other form's of media when looking at what motivates someone for a race choice in Fantasy.

I mean I grew up watching Thundercats, and TMNT, and Secret of NIMH and many more, but those are not what jump out when I think of Fantasy.

I will openly admit though, that what hooked me with Fantasy, was Dragonlance. I had tons of those books.
For me Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander (which has dwarves) and Tolkien were pretty foundational along with Greek and Norse myths as far as fantasy reading, but I was also heavily influenced by things like Thundar the Barbarian, He-Man, and Flash Gordon cartoons.
 

There's also the 7000-year-old Sumerian lizardfolk, which they apparently made dozens of figures of for some reason. They're especially weird, because the females are seen nursing babies who are also lizards... a distinct and unusual depiction to say the least.
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Fascinating! I had never heard of these. Perhaps I should dig deeper into Sumerian culture for ideas WRT dragonborn cultures.

Also, personally I think both sides rely too much on human characters.
Sure. Or even in works that do feature all or almost all human protagonists, you can get some genuine creativity in the non-human ones. Animorphs, for instance, has very few "humanoid" aliens; the gedd and hork-bajir are the only ones we get to see "on camera" as it were, and Ax mentions that Worf looks like a female of an alien species he knows about (but they must have tails, since it's a well-documented fact in-universe that humans are weird for being exclusively bipedal without tails). It's sort of like how every alien species you see in Star Trek uses an alphabet (rather than a syllabary or abugida etc.) and a decimal number system when that's not even the tiniest slice of the ways humans have done things.

How is Eowyn not memorable? She killed the Witched King. I'd also say the Faramir is memorable too - but definitely Eowyn should count!
Yeah, I was gonna say that too. Her name was the first on my lips.

In the majority of serious fiction and video games (not cartoons) there are simply more elves, dwarves and other humanoids described than anthropomorphic characters. Beyond that, they tend to have specific tropes and paradigms. Which is not to say there is none, there is simply more with the "traditional" races and it tends to be a bit more consistent. So people want to play what they're familiar with. It appeals to them because there's some basis identifying with that race, and it supports a fantasy world view that they know.
Isn't this a bit circular? There are more of them because they were thrust into the public eye by the seminal work of high fantasy. Tolkien is responsible for influencing fantasy fiction around the world at this point, in part because D&D is. Would elves and dwarves be the force they are today if Tolkien had been a scholar of Arabic literature and sourced his work there? Or if he had been a scholar of Indian literature and had translated the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and based his work off them? We might have elephant-men and nagas rather than dwarves and elves, and be in exactly the same situation.

Why these two specific things? Just saying they're more prevalent is like answering, "Why is Windows the most common operating system" with "because more computers use it"--it doesn't answer the question, it simply reiterates that the questioned state of affairs is real.

As an example wen it comes to tortles they are either teenage mutant ninjas or a person that talks ... really ... slow ... ly. Doesn't really tell you much about what they are. So as a player you have to fill in most of the blanks, something not everyone wants to do. Even if you grew up with Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr Who there weren't a lot of cat people running around.
Unless you look to Japanese works (or other cultures), where you have more variety. For example, Final Fantasy XIV has the kojin. They don't talk slowly, and they aren't all ninjas; the red kojin are samurai, seers, and (occasionally) ninjas, while the blue kojin (which are actually green, because in traditional Japanese you use the same word for both, ao) are traders, craftsmen, and entrepreneurs. Both are deeply spiritual and practice reverence of ancestors and objects as part of their continent's wider culture of revering the kami, the spirits of things, ideas, and places.

Cat people are probably the most common, I grew up reading Larry Niven and his stories of Kzin for example. I didn't say they never appear, but if you have to go back to the early 70s to find an example from a cartoon, I stand by my words. Anthropomorphic people are less common.
Yes, no one is disputing that. We're asking why there is this difference. Is it simply that Tolkien was that influential as a writer? Is there something special about them? The fact that elves remain incredibly popular while dwarves aren't so much (even with the Hobbit films presumably giving them a boost!) seems to indicate that it's a mixed situation. Hence, asking why. Why have these things been more popular both with the ordinary public and, specifically, with people creating new works?

And, if you find that question too simple for your tastes, will this change in the coming decades as a generation grows up seeing dragonborn and tieflings more often than dwarves in D&D?
 

Fascinating! I had never heard of these. Perhaps I should dig deeper into Sumerian culture for ideas WRT dragonborn cultures.


Sure. Or even in works that do feature all or almost all human protagonists, you can get some genuine creativity in the non-human ones. Animorphs, for instance, has very few "humanoid" aliens; the gedd and hork-bajir are the only ones we get to see "on camera" as it were, and Ax mentions that Worf looks like a female of an alien species he knows about (but they must have tails, since it's a well-documented fact in-universe that humans are weird for being exclusively bipedal without tails). It's sort of like how every alien species you see in Star Trek uses an alphabet (rather than a syllabary or abugida etc.) and a decimal number system when that's not even the tiniest slice of the ways humans have done things.


Yeah, I was gonna say that too. Her name was the first on my lips.


Isn't this a bit circular? There are more of them because they were thrust into the public eye by the seminal work of high fantasy. Tolkien is responsible for influencing fantasy fiction around the world at this point, in part because D&D is. Would elves and dwarves be the force they are today if Tolkien had been a scholar of Arabic literature and sourced his work there? Or if he had been a scholar of Indian literature and had translated the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and based his work off them? We might have elephant-men and nagas rather than dwarves and elves, and be in exactly the same situation.

Why these two specific things? Just saying they're more prevalent is like answering, "Why is Windows the most common operating system" with "because more computers use it"--it doesn't answer the question, it simply reiterates that the questioned state of affairs is real.


Unless you look to Japanese works (or other cultures), where you have more variety. For example, Final Fantasy XIV has the kojin. They don't talk slowly, and they aren't all ninjas; the red kojin are samurai, seers, and (occasionally) ninjas, while the blue kojin (which are actually green, because in traditional Japanese you use the same word for both, ao) are traders, craftsmen, and entrepreneurs. Both are deeply spiritual and practice reverence of ancestors and objects as part of their continent's wider culture of revering the kami, the spirits of things, ideas, and places.


Yes, no one is disputing that. We're asking why there is this difference. Is it simply that Tolkien was that influential as a writer? Is there something special about them? The fact that elves remain incredibly popular while dwarves aren't so much (even with the Hobbit films presumably giving them a boost!) seems to indicate that it's a mixed situation. Hence, asking why. Why have these things been more popular both with the ordinary public and, specifically, with people creating new works?

And, if you find that question too simple for your tastes, will this change in the coming decades as a generation grows up seeing dragonborn and tieflings more often than dwarves in D&D?

This isn't a thread about cat people or any "non-traditional" races. It's about the appeal of the tolkien-esque races. The former has been represented throughout history and in different cultures but the latter has more resonance and a deeper foundation for the most people that play the game.

Go to a game and say your PC is a dwarf or an elf and people have preconceived notions about what they look like, their behavior, culture and society. Go and say you're playing a loxodon and most people will ask you what that even looks like.

As far as why Tolkien had such a big influence? He was big in the 70s when the game was born, D&D became a hit, a lot of people that wrote novels built on the most common races. When video games became a thing Tolkien and western mythology (such as it is) was the primary influence because that's who they were selling to. It became a self-amplifying feedback loop that reinforced the tropes. There's nothing tying anthropomorphic races together. 🤷‍♂️

As far as the future, as Yogi Berra once supposedly said "The future is hard to predict, especially when it hasn't happened yet."
 

There's nothing tying anthropomorphic races together
I'd disagree with that.

The difference is the people who are attune to anthropomorphic races know the main traits of them.

They just didn't have a Tolkien to make them popular.

That is it. There are tropes for these races. They just lack a Tolkien or their founding myths are not as popular.

Tolkien took a few mythological races, changed them, and put them in an extremely popular book.
 



Cat people are probably the most common, I grew up reading Larry Niven and his stories of Kzin for example. I didn't say they never appear, but if you have to go back to the early 70s to find an example from a cartoon, I stand by my words. Anthropomorphic people are less common.
That was the earliest appearance I could remember. I can find dozens of later references, including at least three appearances of cat people in Doctor Who from 1989 onwards.
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Caitians made live action cameos in a couple of the Star Trek movies, and where a playable race in the FASA Star Trek RPG.

The main obstacle in live action is purely practical - it is more difficult to do convincing make-up for furry people than it is for scaly people.
 
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Go to a game and say your PC is a dwarf or an elf and people have preconceived notions about what they look like, their behavior, culture and society. Go and say you're playing a loxodon and most people will ask you what that even looks like.
No, you are making the mistake of thinking everyone shares a common culture with you. Even on these forums there are people from different countries and different generations. They all have different cultural baggage. And they often have very different ideas about elves and dwarves, and, whilst they may not have heard the name "Loxodon" a large proportion of the population of Earth knows what Ganesh looks like.
As far as why Tolkien had such a big influence? He was big in the 70s when the game was born, D&D became a hit, a lot of people that wrote novels built on the most common races.
This wasn't universal. Tolkien himself was baffled that he was so popular in the USA when he received little recognition in his native country.
 


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