D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

Paul Farquhar said:

No. This is wrong. Halflings have weapons. Halfling archers are in Tolkien. Ergo WotC cannot mention them. However, if you look at halflings where they appear in adventures, they are armed.

It's also wrong to assume that the places halflings live are as dangerous as Tatooine. I've already mentioned that in Cormyr you need a licence to carry a weapon. I.e. no one has them unless they are a knight or licenced adventurer. This means Cormyr is SAFE. There are no tuskan raiders in Cormyr.

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like @turnip_farmer I too don't think trademarks work like you seem to think
Halflings of other settings have basically no confusion potential with hobbits due to so many distinct differences. It's only the 5e PHB trying to shun all of that in favor of making phb halflings into legally distinct hobbits.

Here's also a Hobbit.

tetrasodium said:

Spoiler: certainly not a hobbit either. Plus maybe a human & corpse collector

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Halflings of other settings have basically no confusion potential with hobbits due to so many distinct differences. It's only the 5e PHB trying to shun all of that in favor of making phb halflings into legally distinct hobbits.

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Did... did that last halfling take an arrow to the knee?

Paul Farquhar said:

No. This is wrong. Halflings have weapons. Halfling archers are in Tolkien. Ergo WotC cannot mention them. However, if you look at halflings where they appear in adventures, they are armed.

It's also wrong to assume that the places halflings live are as dangerous as Tatooine. I've already mentioned that in Cormyr you need a licence to carry a weapon. I.e. no one has them unless they are a knight or licenced adventurer. This means Cormyr is SAFE. There are no tuskan raiders in Cormyr.

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You know, I keep looking inside the PHB, the part where they list all the people who helped design the game. Tolkien isn't mentioned once.

So, I get it, to you halflings and hobbits are the exact same people with the exact same lore and Sauron is a DnD character. But to the rest of us, Tolkien =/= DnD. And, if I had to make a guess, saying that halflings use bows isn't going to have the Tolkien estate suing for damages. I have no idea where you even got the idea of hobbits being archers, so I doubt the connection is so strong.

And if it is? Then Halflings, due to their small size, could use Crossbows. Or slings. But instead, as I have repeated and posted and repeated and posted and repeated and posted, we are told halflings use Sticks and Rocks. If WoTC is so terrified of being sued that they cannot even mentioning that halflings use "weapons" in the generic, then they need to drop them from the game. Clearly they are just courting disaster otherwise.

Also, Cormyr is a funny example. You know what Cormyr is famous for? Its knights, its army, its licensed adventurers. All of whom patrol the borders and KEEP it safe. Do all halflings in the world live in Cormyr? I doubt it. And if they do... well then halflings are simply a protectorate of the big folk. For all the talk of them being brave and so much better than the big folk because they aren't nearly as greedy and ambitious, they would be showing that they couldn't even survive without the greed and ambition of the humans who forged a kingdom and fight to keep it safe. Kind of like a kid who declares themselves completely independent, as their parents pay for their apartment, groceries and utilities.

Chaosmancer said:

Also, Cormyr is a funny example. You know what Cormyr is famous for? Its knights, its army, its licensed adventurers. All of whom patrol the borders and KEEP it safe. Do all halflings in the world live in Cormyr? I doubt it. And if they do... well then halflings are simply a protectorate of the big folk. For all the talk of them being brave and so much better than the big folk because they aren't nearly as greedy and ambitious, they would be showing that they couldn't even survive without the greed and ambition of the humans who forged a kingdom and fight to keep it safe. Kind of like a kid who declares themselves completely independent, as their parents pay for their apartment, groceries and utilities.

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No. Not like the kid whose parents pay for their apartment. Closer to a homeless encampment where those that live there are safe inside a country's boundaries and laws, yet independent from being told what to do the vast majority of the time.

FrozenNorth said:

Did... did that last halfling take an arrow to the knee?

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It's on rising page 43 showing a mark of healing house jorasco halfling casting some kind of impressive looking spell like raise dead* while standing on what is either a mountain of corpses or pile of soldiers knocking on death's door. The red arrow is definitely pointing at something (by coincidence) but I'm not sure what if not his tabard caught in the wind. Could also be a cloak/cape or some rope dangling from that flag

*I doubt cure wounds would be so impressive

Oofta said:

As we keep trying to tell you, there is no lore that says halflings use only sticks and stones. I'm sure they'll use whatever weapons they have available.

They might use sticks and stones in some cases to drive off monsters. They are also talking about scenarios where these kind of attacks can be talked about for generations. Since halflings live to be 150, that's once a century at most.

In any case they might also use weapons. There might be an NPC halfling with a different categorization from the MM, anywhere from ArchDruid to Veteran which can be of any humanoid race; there isn't a "no halfling" clause.

But please. Show where it says halflings never use weapons. Show where it says what weapons human commoners (and only human commoners) use.

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Once every hundred years.... So, first of all, that isn't how generations work. A generation is the time between birth and adulthood (ish) , so in humans that is about 20 years. So "once in a generation" is an attack every 20 years. Even if it is an attack that will be talked about for generations, that doesn't tell us how often they are attacked, but once every 100 years is beyond ridiculous.

(As a note, I find being attacked once every 20 years while I listed for Faerun about six cataclysms in the span of a single decade to be so generous as to be insulting.


Secondly, I'm done posting it. I'm done trying to explain it. Everyone is just insisting that the book doesn't say what the book says. I want halflings to use weapons. You guys want halflings to use weapons. I'm just willing to admit the book says that they don't. But if you guys want to pretend like that isn't the case, I'm done. I've posted the evidence multiple times.

We both know that it says halflings defend their homes with tactics that exclusively mention using sticks and rocks, and no other weapons. We both know that the PHB and Mordenkainen's doesn't give humans, let alone human commoners, any sort of attention on that front.

You can pretend that means Halflings use weapons.

Paul Farquhar said:

No, the Forgotten Realms is not more dangerous than Middle Earth, with it's trolls wandering near the road, killer wolves and goblin invasions. And Tolkien's hobbits are capable of defending themselves, contributing archers to national armies, and are protected (to a degree) by rangers. Just as I would expect in the Forgotten Realms.

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Middle Earth -> 1 cataclysm in recent memory.

Faerun -> Six cataclysms in recent memory.

Middle Earth-> Trolls, wolves, goblins, dragons, giants,

Faerun -> Trolls, wolves, goblins, orcs, gnolls, demons, devils, undead, dragons, giants, ogres, ettins, Cyclops, spinx, manticore, medusa, gorgon, grick, Aboleth, Mindflayer, drow, duergar, yuan-ti, yugoloths, evil spellcasters, oni, doppelgangers, lycanthropes, Genie, Golems, ect ect ect


I would expect halflings to defend themselves in the forgotten realms too. Seems like grabbing a bow would be a good option. They don't, at least not when protecting their homes.

Paul Farquhar said:

The lore in Tolkien on hobbits is far more extensive than what is written for elves and dwarves. The defence "but halflings are not the same as hobbits" does not hold if a lawyer can point to great chunks of similar text describing each. Which happened in 1st edition, leading to much of the halfling lore from the 1st version of the 1st edition AD&D core rule books being dropped in the second version of the 1st edition AD&D core rulebooks.

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Great, near forty years ago they dropped all the lore and forgot to pick it back up.

That is exactly the type of problem we are talking about.

Maxperson said:

So you don't have anything but the holy ritual where it describes the tactics used. You could have just said that. Those tactics can be used with axes when the real thing happens.

That's another Strawman from you. I didn't say that the book didn't say swatting with sticks and hurling stones. I said that that the holy rite says sticks and stones, and it is a holy rite as it is listed under the goddess and not in Serious Business portion where it talks about real defense. Then I said that those tactics practiced in the rite with sticks and stones can be used with axes and spears, because you know, they're only tactics.

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Try actually reading the text. That is what they do when the "real thing" happens. Unless you think they are throwing rocks at a friendly troll to drive it off.

Maxperson said:

That's an outright falsehood. I've said over and over again that the holy rite uses that version. That's a direct acknowledgement that during the holy rite, they use that version of the tactics. Then I argued that there's nothing in the lore saying that outside of the holy rite that they use that version and that the tactics can be used with spears and axes that the Halflings have.

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They
are
not
Holy
Rites

Nothing in the text says they are holy rites. You are adding that because when talking about their war goddess, they talk about how they defend their homes, which is the only form of war halflings get up to.

THEY ARE NOT HOLY RITES.

If they were holy rites, it would say it. Explicitly. Not assume that anything under their discussion of the gods must be only a holy ceremony and nothing else. Literally, there is no proof for your position except that it is under the discussion of their goddess of war and battle. Which, you know, talks about war and battle. Not holy rites that they practice that just sound like they are engaging with real foes but they are really dealing with straw puppets.

Gammadoodler said:

I guess I don't entirely understand what acknowledgement you need.

If I'm reading it right, their Deity of Defense has some preferred tactics that the lore lists, which includes the use of sticks and stones. I can acknowledge that.

Has anything changed as a result of this acknowledgement?

Then it appears they practice and employ versions of these tactics which, I surmise, may or may not employ sticks and stones depending on the version. Which would seem to get us to, they use whatever weapons, sticks stones or otherwise, the DM says they use, but typically employ these specific tactics.

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That is all I've wanted. For people to acknowledge that the book says what the books says.

Instead, I keep getting told that

1) The book doesn't say that
2) They are exclusively holy rites
3) I need to show that humans use weapons if I want to claim that the book tells me halflings don't otherwise halflings use weapons.

So, thank you for acknowledging that the book says what the book says.