D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

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Zardnaar

Legend
Welcome to the fold, comrade.

Watched some videos on California and it's got a bit crazy.

One sides worse than the other imho both are doing it wrong outsider looking in. It's very American but feel free to ruin your own country. Not gonna lecture or berate you believe whatever you like.

These guys explain it better.


Not how we do things but as I said do whatever you like. Americans in exile.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I think Mind flayer vs Drow is a really interesting way to examine this issue.

At what point is a humanoidish monster so alien that it feels okay to label it as evil?

My gut tells me Mind flayer is over the line into the "okay to label as evil" zone. You are right that it eats and speaks and reproduces. If this were Star Trek there would be really fascinating episodes about the rights of Mind Flayers to use other people as hosts for their young.

In the genre of D&D though, I feel like they are alien enough to be separate from other humanoids like Drow and Orcs. But again, that's gut level.

I do think it would be a lot more interesting if instead of Alignment they had Motivations: hunger, domination, power describes a Mind Flayer to me a lot better than "evil."
Mind flayers eat... the brains of other intelligent beings. They speak... Through a hive mind controlled by a malevolent, authoritarian over-consciousness. They reproduce... By implanting their larvae into the skulls of other intelligent beings and controlling their bodies. Before we can even begin to address the ethical issue of if they are inherently evil, we have to address the utilitarian issue of their existence being inherently destructive to the life and bodily autonomy of all other intelligent beings. There might be a fun story to tell about liberating the Illithid from the enslavement of the elder brains and trying to find a way to coexist with them. But the immediate issue isn’t even one of good vs. evil, it’s one of survival.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Watched some videos on California and it's got a bit crazy.

One sides worse than the other imho both are doing it wrong outsider looking in. It's very American but feel free to ruin your own country. Not gonna lecture or berate you believe whatever you like.

These guys explain it better.


Not how we do things but as I said do whatever you like. Americans in exile.

What's this have to do with D&D?

Yeah, I don’t know what you’re on about, and I’m just going to back away slowly.
 

Scribe

Legend
I have more to say to your post, but this right here:

So you are claiming that because Vistani (a fake culture in a fake game) are portrayed as a certain way in D&D that real life people, specifically those of Romani descent, are suffering real life harm?

Im gonna have to ask you to back that up. This strains credulity.
I'd have to go back and look (I don't care for the Adventure) but I'm pretty sure you could replace then name, and yes it's simply a perpetuation of stereotypes about that culture.

There's zero benefit in doing that, with a human 'fake race' that is a literal stand in for a human actual culture or ethnic group...

At that point we are no longer talking orcs and drow.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
So I'm not allowed to express an opinion? Thanks for sharing.
you mistake me it seems that this would matter to you, you will use the stats in your home game however you want so what about this is deeply important as I suspect that is the real thing for one side?
 

HJFudge

Explorer
I'd have to go back and look (I don't care for the Adventure) but I'm pretty sure you could replace then name, and yes it's simply a perpetuation of stereotypes about that culture.

There's zero benefit in doing that, with a human 'fake race' that is a literal stand in for a human actual culture or ethnic group...

At that point we are no longer talking orcs and drow.

Oh no doubt it is lazy.

But is it harmful? He was not just claiming it was lazy. His statement was that this was doing actual harm. That it perpetuated stereotypes...I guess, I dont know, I dont have the adventure in front of me. Say that it does. In really weird ways. Okay.

Is his claim that because it did so, there is someone who of Romani descent who is suffering? Who has been belittled or talked down to or made fun of?

Shall, if we change it, we go to the Romani people and celebrate them that we have made a step in freeing them from the discrimination they now/once suffered?

That just seems foolish to me. At best. At worst, actively infantilizing.
 

MGibster

Legend
So you are claiming that because Vistani (a fake culture in a fake game) are portrayed as a certain way in D&D that real life people, specifically those of Romani descent, are suffering real life harm?

The argument is that the depiction of Vistani in Curse of Strahd mirror offensive stereotypes of the Roma. And, yes, it's quite clear that the Vistini were modeled after cartoonish stereotypes found in old movies like The Wolf Man from 1941. Madam Eva in the module even serves the same role as Maleva the fortuneteller from that movie.
 

BookTenTiger

He / Him
Mind flayers eat... the brains of other intelligent beings. They speak... Through a hive mind controlled by a malevolent, authoritarian over-consciousness. They reproduce... By implanting their larvae into the skulls of other intelligent beings and controlling their bodies. Before we can even begin to address the ethical issue of if they are inherently evil, we have to address the utilitarian issue of their existence being inherently destructive to the life and bodily autonomy of all other intelligent beings. There might be a fun story to tell about liberating the Illithid from the enslavement of the elder brains and trying to find a way to coexist with them. But the immediate issue isn’t even one of good vs. evil, it’s one of survival.
You need to think outside of the box! Who's to say eating brains and implanting larvae is evil? In fact, if you step a little closer I'll explain more... A little closer... Oh don't mind that, it's just a weird new facial hair style in trying out called "tentacle beard." A little closer............. slurrrp
 

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