D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

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Scribe

Legend
Ok. That I can understand. So would it be accurate then to say that the “humans with masks” line is a rhetorical exaggeration?

See, you lose me when you boil all that stuff you just mentioned down to “nothing but appearance.” Is lifespan appearance? Is physical strength and size appearance? Are innate magical capabilities appearance? Is native environment appearance? Is ability to see in the dark appearance?

I get that these differences aren’t significant enough for your liking. That’s a valid preference. But saying that those differences amount to a rubber mask, or “nothing but appearance” comes across as extremely dismissive and flippant towards people with different preferences.
No, and the short lifespan should be a major influence on their culture, but seeing the dark? Carrying more? No, that's not a big deal (though I called out age, and labour...)

In the end, no. If you remove behavior, attributes, and alignment you don't have much left to hang a hat on.

I would be an old Orc. My son would be in his physical prime.

I can certainly see how a short lived, physically powerful species. Could be aggressive...
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Once you have removed cultural specificities and mechanical differences (the way recent UA and Tasha goes), what makes orcs not human?
Physiology. History. Aforementioned fundamental-value differences (e.g. lacking an inherent understanding of a concept humans naturally evince, like curiosity or exchange, or having a concept humans don't, or treating a concept as more fundamental than humans do, etc.) Diet and food-sources. Reproduction.

You go to levels lower than culture (the aforementioned "fundamental values" thing precedes culture, as does physiology). Because that's literally what would differentiate humans from any alien species we might meet IRL.

Edit: I mean, consider how German has a word like "schadenfreude" which doesn't appear in most other human languages, or "ilunga" from the Tshiluba language of the southern Congo, or "saudade" from Portuguese. None of these are concepts we as humans cannot possibly understand, but having ready-to-hand terms for them results in different perspectives, sometimes on important matters. You can do exactly the same with orcs (or whatever) by inventing new words and thinking really, really hard about what concepts would be natural to or presumed by them that wouldn't be natural to or presumed by us.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Mono cultures help differentiate them from humans.

Doesn't make them humans as such.
Ok, so it isn’t really accurate to say cultural diversity makes them “humans with masks,” is it?
But if they are sentient, fee willed etc etc they're more or less humans culturally.
Yes, if they have the same range of cultural expression, they are more or less the same culturally. That statement is tautological, and using it to explain why cultural diversity makes races “humans with masks” is begging the question.

Snipped for brevity
Right, again, this isn’t what I’m interested in arguing about right now.
 

Ok. That I can understand. So would it be accurate then to say that the “humans with masks” line is a rhetorical exaggeration?

Yes, because the correct depiction is "with masks and infravision".

See, you lose me when you boil all that stuff you just mentioned down to “nothing but appearance.” Is lifespan appearance?

Orcs have the same lifespan as humans. Elves live much longer... but how has it affected roleplay?

Is physical strength and size appearance?

Size is M. Physical strength is identical (same STR range, no feat about carrying capacity to benefit the orc...)

Are innate magical capabilities appearance?

Which innate magical capability? That magic can't put you to sleep and you have advantage to being charmed? No, I don't think it will make cultures so divergent that some will be outside the range of what is possible with humans given the relative rarity for non-heroes to be subjected to a sleep spell. I don't think orcs have any innate magical capability compared to humans.

Is native environment appearance?

Orcs don't have any advantage to live in environment humans can't.

Is ability to see in the dark appearance?

See my remark above about darkvision.

So, this comes across to me as fundamentally saying, “apart from all the non-cultural differences between races, culture is the only thing that differentiates races.”

Yes. I'd have no problem with keeping races distinct if they had all those juicy non-cultural differences with humans you speak off. I'd love a frost-resistant, high CON race thriving in the frozen tundra. Right now, I have a race of guy that might live in the tundra... as aptly as tundra-dwelling humans. I'd love to have strong orcs! But I have... strong-as-humans orcs.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
No, and the short lifespan should be a major influence on their culture, but seeing the dark? Carrying more? No, that's not a big deal (though I called out age, and labour...)


In the end, no. If you remove behavior, attributes, and alignment you don't have much left to hang a hat on.
“Not a big deal,” but not nothing. “Not much left to hang a hat on,” but something left. Again, I get that you don’t consider these differences to be meaningful, but they are differences, and they are not purely appearance.

It definitely seems to me that the “humans with masks” line is meant rhetorically rather than literally. Which is frustrating, but at least it’s understandable. Thank you, this has been enlightening.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Ok, so it isn’t really accurate to say cultural diversity makes them “humans with masks,” is it?

Yes, if they have the same range of cultural expression, they are more or less the same culturally. That statement is tautological, and using it to explain why cultural diversity makes races “humans with masks” is begging the question.


Right, again, this isn’t what I’m interested in arguing about right now.

The monoculture gives the DM and players something to identify with.

If they have the same range of variety as humans for every race there's not much that's really going to stand out.

You can already play against type.

Wash rinse repeat for 12 races in PHB. How about 20? 50? How many other races gas WotC added to the game.

We already agree it's not great under the current rules. Pick one or the other mixing the concept not so great.

If Orcs don't follow Gruumsh what are they? Are they farmers instead? That becomes your new mono culture. Horse nomads? That's your new mono culture. Can they be anything? Humans and Half Elves already do that.

If they try this in 6E and it back fires where do they go from there since 3E and 5E both reversed the changes the previous edition did.

We can't really speculate on the races mechanics in 6E we don't know what they are. But they're going to need some form of mechanic so the races are still going to be a niche/good at something or have some sort of generic ability.
 

That familiarity is what people like and makes it good for newer players.

If they're new, then they don't have familiarity with it. Y'know, because they are new. And if you are trying to say "Well, they'll know the classic Orc", the classic Orc most people know today is almost certainly the Warhammer or Warcraft Orc, not the D&D one.

Can a new or average DM make their race as interesting as the Drow or Githyanki or the Klingons?

I mean, this is my argument? That making interesting, complex races is better to do as the publisher because the average starting DM probably won't be able to. Thus you want to make the complex one so that they can use it, or they have the option to simplify. It's much easier to start at complex and simplify than go the other direction.

Then can they repeat that over and over for every race they allow? Or just default to humans in funny suit.

I mean, they already are humans in funny suits. They're just berserkers. Humans can totally play that: just look at worshipers of Khorne if you want humorless, bloodthirsty evil.

And what's wrong with making races less monolithic and more diverse?

That's where the monoculture comes in.

That doesn't address my last point.

Mono cultures help differentiate them from humans.

I mean, it really doesn't. It just makes them humans with a certain "hat".

Doesn't make them humans as such. But if they are sentient, fee willed etc etc they're more or less humans culturally.

This is a nonsensical definition of what "being human" is. The idea that humans have a monopoly on diversity of culture doesn't even stand up within the Forgotten Realms, where different subraces have different cultures.

Are people complaining about Shield Dwarves versus Gold Dwarves making them more like humans?

Using the same logic D&D has some bigger issues. It's a game I've had Communists gleefully loot stuff, people opposed to the death penalty quite happily execute someone.

No one thinks to hard about it. If you do there's tomb raiding, looting, stealing often murder and executions without due process.

If they're depicting humanoids or whatever as RL cultures that's a problem but if you're drawing lines between what happens in D&D to RL things it's odd when the murder, looting, tomb raiding etc is already there.

May as well pack it up you have to "not think about it" at some point. It's escapism.

Everyone's entitled to their own views it's the double think required. That's ok this isn't even if the connection is very tenuous.

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HJFudge

Explorer
Guys, y'all know that there are already cultural differences among races other than humans in places like the Forgotten Realms, right? Like, there are totally different kinds of Dwarves and Elves already. Do your players think that makes them more like humans, because I know I haven't met anyone who thinks like that yet.

I 100% have players who will RP any race they play as a Human, the only difference being accent. Whether or not this is a problem with how the races are portrayed or some of my players, well, flip a coin I guess.

I guess here is a good litmus test for 'Is this race differentiated from humans enough?': If someone unfamiliar with your campaign lore never saw your character sheet and was somehow blind to seeing your physical appearance but could still see your mannerisms/actions, could they tell you werent playing a human?
 

Scribe

Legend
You can do exactly the same with orcs (or whatever) by inventing new words and thinking really, really hard about what concepts would be natural to or presumed by them that wouldn't be natural to or presumed by us.

Yes, but what folks are saying, is they want a ready made option, without doing the hard thinking about a race that ages quickly, and is above average in strength.

Warhammer or Warcraft Orc, not the D&D one

Yeah, just some fine lads here off for a drink. I wonder what the Humans of such a world feel looking at them rolling on in. ;)

 

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