What is the point of GM's notes?

pemerton said:

I generally agree with this, though I think I would say that I also want to learn how the players conceive of the world.

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pemerton said:

But I think we may well disagree when we cash this out in more concrete terms. To go back to a well-trodden example, suppose a player's conception of his/her character is as a finder of secrets, how does one experience that as a GM? And how does one set things up, and adjudicate action declarations, so as to permit this conception to emerge? I suspect we adopt different answers to these sorts of questions.

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Campbell said:

My number one priority as a player is a consistent standard for what good play looks like. It does not have to be a game described in any particular book, but the consistent application of both play principles and techniques is critical to me personally. That's also something I try my damnedest to provide to the people I play with.

What I personally value most in gaming is a shared sense of purpose. It's really what I value most in life. One team. One fight. That's really what draws me to games with more clear objectives. I know what the mission is. In the absence of clear objectives built into a game I will generally try to build that consistency back in.

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Maxperson said:

I think that bolded portion is true of almost everyone. For a sandbox game to run smoothly, you need proactive players that are going to set those goals and then begin pursuing them. Without that a sanbox fails and you need a game where the DM or RPG itself puts the goals out there.

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pemerton said:

But I think we may well disagree when we cash this out in more concrete terms. To go back to a well-trodden example, suppose a player's conception of his/her character is as a finder of secrets, how does one experience that as a GM? And how does one set things up, and adjudicate action declarations, so as to permit this conception to emerge? I suspect we adopt different answers to these sorts of questions.

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Emerikol said:

I thought this was a pretty decent and fair overview of the two styles. You don't often get that.

My reaction as both a player and a DM is that I would vastly prefer the former.

I think one aspect of the latter is that the authoring the fictional setting's notes as the session rolls along is a major payoff for that style. It feels to me like a collaborative crafting of a story. I think in the latter you'd be far more likely to see a disconnect between what the player thinks is cool and what a character played by that player would want. Playing this way means you must devote a good bit of your energy to being a setting author.

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hawkeyefan said:

Sure, it is a matter of preference, absolutely.

Challenges in Blades compared to D&D are a bit different, that is true, though there is still plenty of overlap. What's interesting for me is that I've found that my group seems to have a much stronger connection to their character and their roleplay is stronger in Blades versus D&D. Yes, there are elements that have them contributing in a more authorial way, beyond the view of their character. But instead of breaking immersion, those instances seem to actually enhance it in other ways.

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pemerton said:

I didn't take Campbell to be referring to a shared sense of purpose among the characters. Nor did I take the "mission" or "goal" to be an in-fiction one. I took him to be referring to the project of playing the game itself. Like When I turn up to the table for pemerton's game, what am I expected to be doing?

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pemerton said:

My experience as a player in Burning Wheel play contradicts Emerikol's conjecture. It does not feel like the collaborative crafting of a story. It feels like intense identification with my character. When I roll the dice I'm anxious for what will happen to me (ie me as a projection onto the persona of my character). There is no disconnect of the sort Emerikol points to. When I (as my character) try to recall the location of Evard's tower, or hope to meet my brother when I return to my ancestral estate, I don't feel like a setting author. I feel like I am moving through the world that my character inhabits.

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hawkeyefan said:

I haven't played Burning Wheel yet, so my knowledge of it boils down to having read through the book a bit, and then mostly your accounts of play. So I know it is different than how Blades in the Dark functions.

I can see the idea of collaborative storytelling being used to describe Blades. I think very often that gets overstated....it's certainly nothing on par with games like Fiasco or Microscope, but there are elements of it in Blades. So I think I get it as a descriptor, but I think its importance is overstated. It is a small part of the game. I think it's also a part of most games, including D&D, but it's more present in Blades.

However, there are players out there for whom ANY instance of player decision that is not 100% "in character" is a deal breaker. Or at least, any such decision that isn't somehow justified through exception of some sort. For such folks, the idea that players in Blades can select or influence elements of the Score, for example, doesn't work for them.

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Campbell said:

@pemerton has the right of it. For me personally Unity of purpose among players (including the GM) is essential. Unity of purpose between characters is sometimes desirable. Sometimes not so desirable. My worst experiences have come from cases where characters have a unified purpose in game, but their players are looking for dramatically different things from the game.

When I speak about games having clear objectives I mean the game's like reward system and instructions for players. Not the details of the fiction where I actually prefer some ambiguity.

My language choice might not have been the best for mixed company. I am a former Soldier. Everything in my life is a mission.

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Maxperson said:

I don't think that I've ever been in an RPG where we as a group had different individual goals outside of the game fiction. What does that look like?

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