D&D General It's not a video game.

jmartkdr2 said:

Cheating is breaking the rules.

If the rules are hidden, how is it morally bankrupt to break them? Calling people "deficient f character" for not knowing what you already know seems a bit pertinacious, especially if you can't state clearly why they would know it.

And if the rule isn't hidden, you shouldn't have a hard time finding it in the rulebook.

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Pure sophistry.

Not reading modules ahead of time is not an official rule in RPG rulebooks because it never occurred to anyone writing any RPG that they would have to lay out something so basic.

Cheating is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Do you really need to be told how a player reading a module ahead of time is a dishonest and unfair act at the game table?

Jaeger said:

Pure sophistry.

Not reading modules ahead of time is not an official rule in RPG rulebooks because it never occurred to anyone writing any RPG that they would have to lay out something so basic.

Cheating is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Do you really need to be told how a player reading a module ahead of time is a dishonest and unfair act at the game table?

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That's only true if the group has established that as a table rule. And it's fine if they do establish it. It's just the that pejorative label of "cheater" doesn't apply to any other player or group that doesn't play by or adopt that table rule. Your table rules do not necessarily apply to all tables.

Reynard said:

This thread is not about aesthetics.

This thread is based on some weird stuff I see on Facebook, Reddit and even here: new players asking for specific strategy help with published 5E adventures. Not "help me build a cool character" or "how do I optimize versus devils" but literal, "how do I get past the cultists in Baldur's Gate?" or "Which Ten Towns adventures give the best loot?"

It is crazy to me that people would ask questions like that for a tabletop RPG. First, it is inefficient because you have NO IDEA how the GM might change the adventure. But moreover it is basically cheating. You can't cheat in a single player CRPG because it is just you, but there are other people at your D&D table.

Anyway, like I said, I have seen it popping up with an increasing frequency and I found it baffling.

Has anyone experienced this in real life? Have you ever had a player cheat at the table in this manner (reading the module beforehand or whatever)? Is it new or am I just noticing it now?

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People want the easy route - you see the same thing in education settings (google Chegg some time).

I'd argue this sort of thing is just as bad for video games as it is for tabletop games.

Jaeger said:

Pure sophistry.

Not reading modules ahead of time is not an official rule in RPG rulebooks because it never occurred to anyone writing any RPG that they would have to lay out something so basic.

Cheating is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Do you really need to be told how a player reading a module ahead of time is a dishonest and unfair act at the game table?

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And we're back to "everyone knows, but I can't prove it."

I see that we have some... contention over a player with prior knowledge (via reading the AP/module) in a campaign.

I think it is worth exploring some nuances in what this might mean.

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Scenario 1: Player secretly reads/consults the AP/module to "win" the game - getting their character the best loot, bypassing challenges, hogging the spotlight, and being the "hero" at the cost of others at the table.

To me, this is the Jerk Fallacy in action. Sure this type of person could be out there but why even discuss them? They are not going to last at any table. Jerks can ruin anything.

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Scenario 2: Player reads/consults the AP/module to get a step up on the game, using the knowledge to gain advantage for themselves and the group.

To some, this person is outright cheating and deserves to be booted.
To others, this person might have a "video game mentality" where they are just looking for an edge and are genuinely ignorant of etiquette for a particular table that frowns upon this.
To some, the easy way to deal with this is for a DM to switch things up and let the players know that they are free to use whatever knowledge they like -- but that using said knowledge without testing assumptions in the game world can lead to unpleasant outcomes for their PC.

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Scenario 3: Player has read or even played/DMed the AP/module before this current campaign was even a thing.

Is it fair to exclude this person from the campaign just because they have prior knowledge?
Is it cheating if the player didn't reveal said knowledge prior to joining the campaign?
Even if it wasn't discussed at all at session zero?
Is it cheating if they use said prior knowledge in the new campaign?
Is it ok if they use it all the time? Some of the time? Once or twice?
As long as they don't tell anyone?
As long as they pretend for a few rounds that their character doesn't know to use fire against trolls?

It may be hard to find a place to draw a line on this one. I sense some here would just exclude this type of player from the get-go or boot them when it came up. Like scenario 2, I think others here just wouldn't worry about it.

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A good session zero DM might ask: "have you played, DMed, or otherwise read this AP/module before?" and then deal with table rules accordingly.

A good session zero DM might also just say (as mentioned above and paraphrasing others posting upthread): "use whatever knowledge you like but know that I, as DM, likely have changed things up and making metagame assumptions to guide your in-game actions could cost your PC dearly." If everyone is playing in good faith and engaging with the game world through their PC, the whole concept of cheating via reading evaporates and people can get down to the serious business of having fun and creating exciting, memorable stories together.

jmartkdr2 said:

And we're back to "everyone knows, but I can't prove it."

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There are hundreds of instances in old modules and modern day adventures with a paragraphs that literary tells you to "stop reading now if you intend to be a player" and not the DM. You, the reader, are told it spoils the fun of the adventure. Can't be clearer than that.

Swarmkeeper said:

Scenario 2: Player reads/consults the AP/module to get a step up on the game, using the knowledge to gain advantage for themselves and the group.

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A DM can work around this, but the point of modules is to reduce DM workload; both creative and logistical. This defeats that point.

This is related to the problem in multiplayer games where people discuss strategies to the point that developers have to tune games with that in mind, in effect requiring that players engage in this activity to do well.

Jaeger said:

Pure sophistry.

Not reading modules ahead of time is not an official rule in RPG rulebooks because it never occurred to anyone writing any RPG that they would have to lay out something so basic.

Cheating is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Do you really need to be told how a player reading a module ahead of time is a dishonest and unfair act at the game table?

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Do not feed the sophist.

iserith said:

That's only true if the group has established that as a table rule. And it's fine if they do establish it. It's just the that pejorative label of "cheater" doesn't apply to any other player or group that doesn't play by or adopt that table rule. Your table rules do not necessarily apply to all tables.

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No.

You're ruining the whole point of the game.

It is the very definition of cheating.

jmartkdr2 said:

And we're back to "everyone knows, but I can't prove it."

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You require proofs for expecting basic ethical behavior?

That's scary.

Jaeger said:

No.

You're ruining the whole point of the game.

It is the very definition of cheating.

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Your "point of the game" isn't everyone's "point of the game." You are applying your table rules and play goals to everyone else then anyone who deviates from that is a "cheater" or "unethical." Do you see the issue with that?

Further, the game defines the goals of play (D&D 5e anyway) as everyone having a fun and creating an exciting, memorable story by playing. This is perfectly achievable with some or all players having foreknowledge of the adventure. It may not be fun for you, but your sort of fun doesn't apply to everyone.