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D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

I don't want "action" movie fantasy, no. If I did, I would just be happy playing D&D.

AD&D had rules for regularly checking to see if your character picked up a disease or became ill, for instance. 5E lacks that, among many other things. However, even some of the systems it has are overly simplified for my tastes. Instead of continuing to mod the heck out of it, I was curious what other systems are out there for medieval fantasy that more accurately model real-life in many of the terms I've expressed.

I would rather play a game where "hits" are actual hits and you might survive a few hits before you died, but one hit might also kill you. Combat should be avoided whenever possible, and a man with a drawn sword is actually dangerous.
Honestly I think you're looking for either Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, GURPS, or MERP based on that description. (MERP is basically Rolemaster lite and not very Tolkien - but Rolemaster is a game that badly needs a lite version). I'd also look at Blades in the Dark and Apocalypse World for very different takes but don't think they are what you are looking for.
 

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dave2008

Legend
I would rather play a game where "hits" are actual hits and you might survive a few hits before you died, but one hit might also kill you. Combat should be avoided whenever possible, and a man with a drawn sword is actually dangerous.
That is how we play 5e. HP = luck, exhaustion, minor scrapes, dodges, blocks, etc. Real hits (critical hits and when HP = 0) take damage from your bloodied HP (meat points if you will) which maxes out around 8-10 or so (for a Medium creature). 0 BHP = dead. One crit can kill you, and if you drop to 0 HP, you're in real trouble. We added lingering injuries from the DMG at one point, but it just wasn't enough fun for the added "simulation."
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don't think there is a real simulation game for "reality"

Most game that are called simulationist only simulate combat, athletics, and skill. Few simulate the magic and fantasy. No talk into arcane formula or making attack spell do what their elements do in physics and chemistry.

I mean what games state the temperature of a fire spell? Or the lumens of light magic?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
However, no one would be able to learn magic or make magic items if 8-story dragons existed. They would be dead before they got the chance!
It depends a lot on how common they are. After all, whales much bigger than that exist and yet people travel across the ocean. ;)

That is how we play 5e. HP = luck, exhaustion, minor scrapes, dodges, blocks, etc. Real hits (critical hits and when HP = 0) take damage from your bloodied HP (meat points if you will) which maxes out around 8-10 or so (for a Medium creature). 0 BHP = dead. One crit can kill you, and if you drop to 0 HP, you're in real trouble. We added lingering injuries from the DMG at one point, but it just wasn't enough fun for the added "simulation."
TBH, that is how most tables play 5E (luck, skill, dodging, etc.) and only going to 0 and maybe critical hits are considered "hits".

FWIW, we've done similar things with criticals, etc. your BHP does, but using levels of exhaustion and other things. But I still am not a fan of "my attack hit and thus forced you to expend HP by parrying, dodging, or whatever". I would rather hitting be very hard in most cases, but count for so much more when it happens!
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I mean what games state the temperature of a fire spell? Or the lumens of light magic?
Which IMO is part of the problem. While not everything needs to be explicitly spelled or stated out, it would be nice to get a ballpark for some things to compare to others.

Consider bright light in 5E D&D:

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How "bright" is bright light? How many lumens? Bright light basically ranges from the central light of torches and even candles (to a small radius) to full blown day light without a cloud in the sky. That is a vast range of lumens!

As per the post upthread how hot is dragonfire? Will it melt stone, steel, or just burn combustible materials? How long does it last. Is a Fireball a burst and then gone? What about the change in air pressure as the area of the fireball is super (maybe?) heated and the cooler air rushes in. Does it have any concussive force? It is more like an "explosion" or just a blast of fire?

Of course this is all highly subjective and I know most people wouldn't really care, but some level of information (on which the rest could be inferred) would be nice for an RPG to me.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The best fantasy simulation game I've encountered is actually ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System). Not popular around here, I know, but it is very good at explaining the "how" of what it does.
 

dave2008

Legend
It depends a lot on how common they are. After all, whales much bigger than that exist and yet people travel across the ocean. ;)
That is not an apples to apples comparison. We don't live in the ocean.
TBH, that is how most tables play 5E (luck, skill, dodging, etc.) and only going to 0 and maybe critical hits are considered "hits".
Possibly, but from what I can see, most tables do not put any teeth behind that in terms of BHP/wounds/ or whatever you want to call them. A hit isn't any different from a Hit in most D&D games (except death saves I guess) I have seen. It most definitely feels different in our games.

I should add that HP and BHP recover/heal differently as well.
But I still am not a fan of "my attack hit and thus forced you to expend HP by parrying, dodging, or whatever". I would rather hitting be very hard in most cases, but count for so much more when it happens!
OK, we did something like that back in our 1e days. But ultimately it just wasn't fun to always miss or have your damage reduced to 0 because of armor. Eventually, a bit of abstraction produced a much more enjoyable game experience for us. Love to hear how it goes for you, everyone is different after all!
 

dave2008

Legend
The best fantasy simulation game I've encountered is actually ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System). Not popular around here, I know, but it is very good at explaining the "how" of what it does.
I just quickly read the description over at DrivethruRPG, but I didn't see anything about the combat system. What, if anything, makes the combat system more simulationist?
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
So, any suggestions for a swords & sorcery medieval fantasy style RPG that is more of a simulation than D&D???
When I think of simulation games the two systems that I look to are Hero System and GURPS. Both of which have Fantasy plug-ins that attempt to extend the simulation to the fantastic to more or less success depending on who you are. (Note that my experience with both systems was in their respective 3rd editions, so I don't know if anything about either of them changed in more recent editions).

I also think that earlier editions of Ars Magica leaned heavily into a simulation approach (again my experience is with 2nd and 3rd edition - more recent editions may be different). Not quite in the same way as either of the two above, but more in a "here's what Europe in the Middle Ages was really like" along with a very simulation-oriented approach to how magic would work.

(There's also D&D 3rd edition, which again is not nearly at the level of Hero or GURPS but is much more of a simulation engine than any other edition of D&D before or since.)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Of course this is all highly subjective and I know most people wouldn't really care, but some level of information (on which the rest could be inferred) would be nice for an RPG to me.
Well that's the point. Fans as a whole don't care equally about simulation of all of the genre.

All that matter is what is important to the players.

For example, in my urban fantasy game, sorcery has different lumen caps. Light can get you very high lumens. Fire and electric sorcery gets you high lumens. All the rest barely gets you a 300 lumen flash. But magic blasts from all of them deal the same damage.

That's because being spotted and visibility is very important. So illumination is simulated.
 

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