Henadic Theologian
Legend
I mean as something seperate from Multuclassing, not sure how that would work, just tossing it out there.
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D (2024) Should One D&D bring but Dual Classing
- Thread starter Henadic Theologian
- Start date
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Actually, what we call multiclassing is closer to dual classing.
But if you want to dual class:
Leave a class behind forever.
Then you start with 0 xp again.
When you gain a level you get all features of the new class, except hp and prof bonus.
You may not use class exclusive features until your new class level exceeds the old class level or you don't earn xp for the adventure.
When you reach your old class level, you can finally use all abilities.
Edit: maybe you should only allow leaving your class after level 3 or so.
But if you want to dual class:
Leave a class behind forever.
Then you start with 0 xp again.
When you gain a level you get all features of the new class, except hp and prof bonus.
You may not use class exclusive features until your new class level exceeds the old class level or you don't earn xp for the adventure.
When you reach your old class level, you can finally use all abilities.
Edit: maybe you should only allow leaving your class after level 3 or so.
Last edited:
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Agree with UngeheuerLich, what we have is actually a lot closer to Dual Classing.
So, what would bringing back multiclassing look like?
You have to lock in two or three classes at character creation. Your XP is halved ... wait, this was back when each class had separate XP charts. We can avoid that.
At 1st and every other level, average together the HPs of your two classes.
Wait, we we do need to halve it otherwise spells and features come too soon.
But basically it becomes very similar to 3rd and 5th edition multiclassing if you are forced to alternate.
Meh.
What we have now is an amalgam of both due to the added flexibility that was put in, able to mimic either to some degree.
So, what would bringing back multiclassing look like?
You have to lock in two or three classes at character creation. Your XP is halved ... wait, this was back when each class had separate XP charts. We can avoid that.
At 1st and every other level, average together the HPs of your two classes.
Wait, we we do need to halve it otherwise spells and features come too soon.
But basically it becomes very similar to 3rd and 5th edition multiclassing if you are forced to alternate.
Meh.
What we have now is an amalgam of both due to the added flexibility that was put in, able to mimic either to some degree.
4E was the one edition that got multiclassing right. For those who wanted an even split, there was a hybrid system where you took two "half classes" that stacked to the power of a full class. For those who wanted to dabble in another class without committing to it, they had feats to cherry-pick the abilities you liked.
I don't think 1D&D is going to do the hybrid approach. However, standardizing subclass levels removes one of the main obstacles to a third-party hybrid system.
I don't think 1D&D is going to do the hybrid approach. However, standardizing subclass levels removes one of the main obstacles to a third-party hybrid system.
Last edited:
the Jester
Legend
Good God, no. Why? How will this possibly improve the game? What problem does this solve?
I too think that 5e MC is more like 2e's "dual classing" than 2e's multiclassing but had to double check to be sure of specifics.
This is probably the intention
I think basic might have had a simplified version but don't remember or have the book to check against. 4e multic;assing has been mentioned but those were more like classes of their own (I think).
This is probably the intention
Multi-Class and
Dual-Class
Characters
A multi-class character
improves in two or more
classes simultaneously. His
experience is divided equally
bet ween each class. The
available class combinations
vary according to race. The character can use the abilities of
both classes at any time, with only a few restrictions. Only
demihumans can be multi-class characters.
A dual-class character is one who starts with a single class,
advances to moderate level, and then changes to a second
character class and starts over again. The character retains the
benefits and abilities of the first class but never again earns
experience for using them. There are some limitations on
combining the abilities of the two classes but, as long as
minimum ability and alignment requirements are met, there
are no restrictions on the possible character class combina-
tions. Only humans can be dual-class characters.
Multi-Class Combinations
All of the standard demihuman races are listed here
along with their allowable multi-class combinations. Note
that the character class names (not group names) are used
below.
Dwarf Halfling
Fighter/Thief Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Cleric
Half-elf
Elf Fighter/Cleric*
Fighter/Mage Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Thief Fighter/Mage
Mage/Thief Cleric*/Ranger
Fighter/Mage/Thief Cleric*/Mage
Thief/Mage
Gnome Fighter/Mage/Cleric*
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Illusionist * or Druid
Fighter/Thief
Cleric/Illusionist
Cleric/Thief
Illusionist/Thief
Specialist wizards cannot be multi-class (gnome illusion-
ists are the exception to this rule). The required devotion to
their field prevents specialist wizards from applying them-
selves to other classes. Priests of a specific mythos might be
allowed as a multi-class option; this will depend on the nature
of the mythos as determined by the DM.
Multi-Class Benefits and Restrictions
A multi-class character always uses the most favorable com-
bat value and the best saving throw from his different classes.
The character’s hit points are the average of all his Hit Dice
rolls. When the character is first created, the player rolls hit
points for each class separately, totals them up, then divides
by the number of dice rolled (round fractions down). Any
Constitution bonus is then added to the character’s hit points.
If one of the character’s classes is fighter and he has a Consti-
tution of 17 or 18, then he gains the +3 or +4 Constitution
bonus available only to warriors (instead of the +2 maximum
available to the other character classes).
Later the character is likely to gain levels in different classes
at different times. When this happens, roll the appropriate Hit
Die and divide the result by the number of classes the charac-
ter has (round fractions down, but a Hit Die never yields less
than 1 hit point). The character’s Constitution bonus is split
between his classes; thus, a fighter/mage gets half of his Con
bonus when he goes up a level as a fighter and the other half
of the Con bonus when he goes up a level as a mage. A
fighter/mage/thief would get one-third of his bonus when he
goes up as a fighter, one-third when he goes up as a mage, and
the other third when he goes up as a thief.
If the optional proficiency system is used, the character
starts with the largest number of proficiency slots of the differ-
ent classes. Thereafter, he gains new proficiency slots at the
fastest of the given rates. To determine the character’s initial
money, roll according to the most generous of the character’s
different classes.
Multi-class characters can combine abilities from their dif-
ferent classes with the following restrictions:
Warrior: A multi-classed warrior can use all of his abilities
without restriction. The warrior abilities form the base for
other character classes.
Priest: Regardless of his other classes, a multi-classed priest
must abide by the weapon restrictions of his mythos. Thus, a
fighter/cleric can use only bludgeoning weapons (but he uses the
warrior combat value). He retains all his normal priest abilities.
Wizard: A multi-classed wizard can freely combine the
powers of the wizard with any other class allowed, although
the wearing of armor is restricted. Elves wearing elven chain
can cast spells in armor, as magic is part of the nature of
elves. However, elven chain is extremely rare and can never
be purchased. It must be given, found, or won.
Thief: A multi-classed thief cannot use any thieving abilities
other than open locks or detect noise if he is wearing armor that
is normally not allowed to thieves. He must remove his gaunt-
lets to open locks and his helmet to detect noise.
Dual-Class
Characters
A multi-class character
improves in two or more
classes simultaneously. His
experience is divided equally
bet ween each class. The
available class combinations
vary according to race. The character can use the abilities of
both classes at any time, with only a few restrictions. Only
demihumans can be multi-class characters.
A dual-class character is one who starts with a single class,
advances to moderate level, and then changes to a second
character class and starts over again. The character retains the
benefits and abilities of the first class but never again earns
experience for using them. There are some limitations on
combining the abilities of the two classes but, as long as
minimum ability and alignment requirements are met, there
are no restrictions on the possible character class combina-
tions. Only humans can be dual-class characters.
Multi-Class Combinations
All of the standard demihuman races are listed here
along with their allowable multi-class combinations. Note
that the character class names (not group names) are used
below.
Dwarf Halfling
Fighter/Thief Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Cleric
Half-elf
Elf Fighter/Cleric*
Fighter/Mage Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Thief Fighter/Mage
Mage/Thief Cleric*/Ranger
Fighter/Mage/Thief Cleric*/Mage
Thief/Mage
Gnome Fighter/Mage/Cleric*
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Illusionist * or Druid
Fighter/Thief
Cleric/Illusionist
Cleric/Thief
Illusionist/Thief
Specialist wizards cannot be multi-class (gnome illusion-
ists are the exception to this rule). The required devotion to
their field prevents specialist wizards from applying them-
selves to other classes. Priests of a specific mythos might be
allowed as a multi-class option; this will depend on the nature
of the mythos as determined by the DM.
Multi-Class Benefits and Restrictions
A multi-class character always uses the most favorable com-
bat value and the best saving throw from his different classes.
The character’s hit points are the average of all his Hit Dice
rolls. When the character is first created, the player rolls hit
points for each class separately, totals them up, then divides
by the number of dice rolled (round fractions down). Any
Constitution bonus is then added to the character’s hit points.
If one of the character’s classes is fighter and he has a Consti-
tution of 17 or 18, then he gains the +3 or +4 Constitution
bonus available only to warriors (instead of the +2 maximum
available to the other character classes).
Later the character is likely to gain levels in different classes
at different times. When this happens, roll the appropriate Hit
Die and divide the result by the number of classes the charac-
ter has (round fractions down, but a Hit Die never yields less
than 1 hit point). The character’s Constitution bonus is split
between his classes; thus, a fighter/mage gets half of his Con
bonus when he goes up a level as a fighter and the other half
of the Con bonus when he goes up a level as a mage. A
fighter/mage/thief would get one-third of his bonus when he
goes up as a fighter, one-third when he goes up as a mage, and
the other third when he goes up as a thief.
If the optional proficiency system is used, the character
starts with the largest number of proficiency slots of the differ-
ent classes. Thereafter, he gains new proficiency slots at the
fastest of the given rates. To determine the character’s initial
money, roll according to the most generous of the character’s
different classes.
Multi-class characters can combine abilities from their dif-
ferent classes with the following restrictions:
Warrior: A multi-classed warrior can use all of his abilities
without restriction. The warrior abilities form the base for
other character classes.
Priest: Regardless of his other classes, a multi-classed priest
must abide by the weapon restrictions of his mythos. Thus, a
fighter/cleric can use only bludgeoning weapons (but he uses the
warrior combat value). He retains all his normal priest abilities.
Wizard: A multi-classed wizard can freely combine the
powers of the wizard with any other class allowed, although
the wearing of armor is restricted. Elves wearing elven chain
can cast spells in armor, as magic is part of the nature of
elves. However, elven chain is extremely rare and can never
be purchased. It must be given, found, or won.
Thief: A multi-classed thief cannot use any thieving abilities
other than open locks or detect noise if he is wearing armor that
is normally not allowed to thieves. He must remove his gaunt-
lets to open locks and his helmet to detect noise.
I think basic might have had a simplified version but don't remember or have the book to check against. 4e multic;assing has been mentioned but those were more like classes of their own (I think).
The shift from class for building prereqs ->one or more PrC with notable prerequisites to class+archetype with nearly nonexistant attrib ≥13 prereq creates a lot of problems when it comes to classes needing to balance being interesting enough at level 1 & feeling like a player is getting into their class/archetype niche at a reasonable pace against the warlock type problem of being so frontloaded they are more valuable as a dip than a class. Shifting from 5e's multiclassing with its similarities to 2e dual classing & 3.x MC over to something with more in common with 2e style multiclassing would solve a lot of these problems. That kind of shift would also avoid "surprise I'm now a X" disruptions where a character takes a dip or moves to a new class & completely reinvents themselves
Incenjucar
Legend
I don't think it really works with the way that class features work in 5E. Classes get too many features that build on each other and it's easier to use feats and multiclassing for that. You have a character with multiple ability sets but who was always a few levels behind, so they'd have a lot of options while also being increasingly bad at landing them or avoiding damage.
The 4E methods wouldn't work because features don't silo like that in 5E.
2E multiclassing would get you two classes at Level 15 max or 3 classes at level 12 max.
The 4E methods wouldn't work because features don't silo like that in 5E.
2E multiclassing would get you two classes at Level 15 max or 3 classes at level 12 max.
Tales and Chronicles
Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I think one way of doing things would be to use the ''archetype's slots'' to use as multiclass. Each class would have a shortened list of features that any other class could fit in instead of picking archetype. Now that all classes gain their subclass features at the same level, it should be relatively easy.
Example:
Multiclass: Fighter
Requirement: 3rd of any class other than Fighter.
3rd level: Second Wind
6th level: Bonus Fighting style
10th level: Action Surge
14th: Indomitable 3/day
Example:
Multiclass: Fighter
Requirement: 3rd of any class other than Fighter.
- You gain access to any feat restricted to fighters or the warrior group.
- You gain training with martial weapons and all types of armors, including shield.
- You gain proficiency in one skill allowed for a 1st level Fighter.
- When you would choose this option on 3rd level, you loose access to your main class' archetypes and replace their features with the following ones:
3rd level: Second Wind
6th level: Bonus Fighting style
10th level: Action Surge
14th: Indomitable 3/day
Horwath
Legend
My version for dual classing:
You have only two classes, you multiclass normally per 5E, you just need to keep both classes within one level of each other, until 5th level.
Then at 5th level you get class levels in both classes, but HPs and HDs of only one class(lower amount), and you count as only one level higher.
you get "double levels" additional time at levels 8,11,14,17 and 20.
Becoming 13/13 split at 20th level, but with HPs and HDs of 10/10 level multiclass.
This sorts out 1-2 levels dip cheese builds, and fixes underpoweredness of even split multiclass.
You have only two classes, you multiclass normally per 5E, you just need to keep both classes within one level of each other, until 5th level.
Then at 5th level you get class levels in both classes, but HPs and HDs of only one class(lower amount), and you count as only one level higher.
you get "double levels" additional time at levels 8,11,14,17 and 20.
Becoming 13/13 split at 20th level, but with HPs and HDs of 10/10 level multiclass.
This sorts out 1-2 levels dip cheese builds, and fixes underpoweredness of even split multiclass.
Neonchameleon
Legend
No - it was a fiddly mess.
My suggestion, however, is that as they are standardising subclasses each class should offer a "multiclass subclass" that can be taken as your subclass from any other class.
Similar Threads
- Poll
