What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

JAMUMU · Mar 3, 2023

Here we see a reproduction of the ancient Egyptian god Set (colourised). Archeologists have theorised that Set was actually a syncretised god of Celtic extraction (probably Scottish), due to what is called the "DID YOU JUST SPILL MA PINT?" expression Set appears to be wearing in this stele:

S'mon · Mar 3, 2023

deganawida said:
Yeah, history is actually more fascinating than our imaginations sometimes. However, to the Romans, blonde might have meant what Northern Europeans and North Americans would consider just to be brown.

I think he said 'golden' hair. Certainly there's a cline; Italian blondes tend to be fairly dark compared to the lightest Scandinavians. OTOH even in Scandinavia brunette hair is most common AFAIK.

Snarf Zagyg · Mar 3, 2023

JAMUMU said:
Here we see a reproduction of the ancient Egyptian god Set (colourised). Archeologists have theorised that Set was actually a syncretised god of Celtic extraction (probably Scottish), due to what is called the "DID YOU JUST SPILL MA PINT?" expression Set appears to be wearing in this stele:

It's not like the Greeks were a monolithic people either, as evidenced by this outtake footage from the Zack Snyder documentary, 300.

S'mon · Mar 3, 2023

JAMUMU said:
Here we see a reproduction of the ancient Egyptian god Set (colourised). Archeologists have theorised that Set was actually a syncretised god of Celtic extraction (probably Scottish), due to what is called the "DID YOU JUST SPILL MA PINT?" expression Set appears to be wearing in this stele:
View attachment 277213

Ridley Scott said he used Anglo-Celtic actors for Ancient Egyptians because they were cheap & plentiful.

Snarf Zagyg · Mar 3, 2023

S'mon said:
I think he said 'golden' hair. Certainly there's a cline; Italian blondes tend to be fairly dark compared to the lightest Scandinavians. OTOH even in Scandinavia brunette hair is most common AFAIK.

Eh, the issue with color in ancient texts has been well-documented.

Wine-dark sea (Homer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cordwainer Fish · Mar 3, 2023

deganawida said:
Yeah, history is actually more fascinating than our imaginations sometimes. However, to the Romans, blonde might have meant what Northern Europeans and North Americans would consider just to be brown.

My mother and I disagreed on my hair color; she said it was blond but I say brown.

S'mon · Mar 3, 2023

Snarf Zagyg said:
Eh, the issue with color in ancient texts has been well-documented.

Wine-dark sea (Homer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Homer didn't see blue; Ovid did see yellow, AFAICT.

Of course Queen Dido of Carthage is more myth than history, and even if she was an historical figure ca 800 BC there's no particular reason to think Ovid ca 10 BC was giving an accurate account of her hair colour! Ovid's description is only really evidence that the Romans were aware of blonde hair & saw it as noteworthy.

Snarf Zagyg · Mar 3, 2023

S'mon said:
Homer didn't see blue; Ovid did see yellow, AFAICT.

Of course Queen Dido of Carthage is more myth than history, and even if she was an historical figure ca 800 BC there's no particular reason to think Ovid ca 10 BC was giving an accurate account of her hair colour! Ovid's description is only really evidence that the Romans were aware of blonde hair & saw it as noteworthy.

I mean, that's kind of the thing, though. In addition to the issues we have mapping our sense of color to a more ancient sense of color (which is not always exact), we can't use statements from Ovid to say anything, really, about Dido- and certainly not about about Phoenicians in general.

As far as I know (and I am welcome to be corrected on this!) there aren't any references in Ancient Greek writings to what we would call blond hair, and they didn't have any term that would translate to it. Now, it is possible that there are passages where you could infer that they were talking about blond hair- I think there is a reference to the Gauls, and it refers to them having the whitish-grey hair that old people have. But that just shows that they either lacked the vocabulary (wine-blood sea) or that they lacked the familiarity to bother naming it.

...which means that even the Ptolemaic pharaohs weren't going to be blond.

S'mon · Mar 3, 2023

Snarf Zagyg said:
...which means that even the Ptolemaic pharaohs weren't going to be blond.

If I had to bet, I'd bet against any pre-Ptolemaic Pharoah ever having been blond. I think it's impossible to know for sure, but AFAICT the Sea Peoples never ruled Egypt (just been Googling)

having been defeated by Rameses III, and AFAICT they were the only possibly-blond folk in the region pre-Alexander.

Edit: OTOH I do think many Pharoahs didn't look a million miles from Adam Driver.

Malmuria · Mar 3, 2023

This thread is making me very uncomfortable. There is a long history of western scholars drawing a line through the Mediterranean in order to elevate the importance of ancient greece and selectively claim it for (white) "European" identity and dismiss the importance of geographically African or middle eastern civilizations, often attributing the achievements of the latter to the the former. The aim was to retroactively apply a notion of race to suggest that important developments in philosophy, arts, or technology were the sole inheritance of white Europeans. Combined with race science this led to claims that white Europeans were more suitable to rule over other cultures. Those were the stakes of suggesting that pharaohs were a blonde-haired ruling class, for example

What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

JAMUMU

actually dracula

S'mon

Legend

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist

S'mon

Legend

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist

Wine-dark sea (Homer) - Wikipedia

Cordwainer Fish

Imp. Int. Scout Svc. (Dishon. Ret.)

S'mon

Legend

Wine-dark sea (Homer) - Wikipedia

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist

S'mon

Legend

Malmuria

Hero

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