[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

Piratecat said:

Guys, stop for a second and think about the real world. The concept of the lich queen not being high enough level doesn't really stand up to logic.

Let's take the Queen of England, and assume that a bunch of multi-tentacled horrors wanted her destroyed. Now, she's no tougher than anyone else, since our world doesn't really work in terms of levels - she may be a "20th lvl queen," or what have you, but she's still as fragile as anyone else.

But do you think those anti-Brit illithids would be able to come near her?

Not a chance. Her loyal supporters would do everything in their power to save, protect and support her - in part BECAUSE she's fragile.

Same thing for the githyanki. Sure, they're queen is eeevil and power-hungry and uber-powerful, but she'll always be perceived by the githyanki as having Ultimate power, and thus they will fight for her with all their might. The githyanki lich-queen could be 1st level, and so long as her people were loyal to her she'd STILL keep back the mindflayer threat.

Just a thought.

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A perfectly plausible explanation. One of many...now watch the refutations come in based upon any number of dubious pseudo-canon assumptions.

Bendris Noulg said:

Actually, throwing out twisted rules interpretations, silly NPC/PC ratio effects and other sorts of things are quite different than constantly insinuating someone's lack of ability. This is why you are a jerk and an ass, and I'll be happy to continue perceiving you as such since you continue to simply prove it true.

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Hey, one follows from the other. You created this character. I am just running with implications. Besides, you admitted yourself that you were trolling. If this is not you, why take it personally? I'm not being serious, really.

jasamcarl said:

Hey, one follows from the other.

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Yes, it does. I got silly because you were being insulting and I wanted to avoid getting flamey over it.

But you really are making it difficult.

And, no, I wasn't trolling, I was being ridiculous. There's a distinct difference, after all.

Hi jasamcarl matey!

jasamcarl said:

Again, this goes back to that usual debate over at what point does Wotc draw the line in terms of balancing the viability of an adventure in as large a number campaigns as possible with page number. They could have made the lich queen at 18th level or 40, but they chose what they believed would be the most applicable level given the (meagre) background and expectations of most campaigns. If anything, 18th would be a better choice than 40.

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Actually her levels fall within previously discussed parameters, its just that her power is somewhat incongrous.

jasamcarl said:

And in any case, what is your problem in this case?

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I take issue with WotC's lack of cosmological verisimilitude.

jasamcarl said:

Given the straightforward nature of the epic rules, scaling a 25th level sorcerer lich is dead simple.

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Absolutely, I can slap a Demigod Template on her before you know it.

jasamcarl said:

Why do you need an official source to validate and detail every aspect of your campaign,

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I don't, you're putting words in my mouth.

But it would be nice to think WotC thought about the 'bigger picture' when they throw about known and established icons.

jasamcarl said:

and why do you refuse to admit that you are in a small minority on these points.

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I don't. Again with the words in the mouth, your trademark as I recall...its all coming back to me now. Still quoting posts en masse rather than replying to individual points I see; and in turn twisting them to suit your purposes. I remember all your tricks mate.

At no point have I ever considered epic/immortal gaming as anything beyond a minority, of course minorities should not be ostracised...I'm sure roleplayers (of all people) would see the hypocrisy in that.

jasamcarl said:

Yes Wotc could try to persuade the general gaming public to play at high level and have respect for a static canon storyline (ignoring the fact that this is at heart a GAME), but why should they when a majority play at low-mid levels and prefer the relative lack of complexity that comes with that?

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You're putting the cart before the horse...or in this case the adventure before the Lich Queen; when clearly the Lich Queen came first.

Of course some people won't have a problem with this approach (which is fair enough) but to use the example herein - what does the Lich Queen mean to them anyway then!? Why couldn't they have used a different Lich Queen!? Why did they have to use Githyanki as the main enemy? Etcetera.

I mean to the uncaring majority its doesn't matter either way. So really all we are seeing is the beatdown of the caring minority - whose rights I champion.

jasamcarl said:

I really think some people have to stop daydreaming and acknowledge this as a SOCIAL medium, but that is just me.....

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Oh c'mon - you're not that bad a poster mate. Perhaps a trifle abusive in your tone but I just put that down to overexuberance.

But you are right, these are social forums and you should probably try being a bit less abrasive - of course thats all 'water of a ducks back' to me, but theres always the probability that someone else could take offence and I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

Numion said:

And then how do the humans in all settings factor in? Their leaders are rarely even 25th level. If you use the city guidelines in DMG humans don't have much more high-level dudes than the Githyanki, even though humans don't kill 17th+ level men. So you could argue that humans are about as wimpy as the Githyanki.

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Actually, no, the hatered of Humans by Illithid is different from the genocidal warfare between Illithid and Gith, primarily in that the Illithid would be more keen on infiltrating the Human Queen's administration, possibly even gaining control of her, in order to gain control of the entire populace of the kingdom. The Gith Queen, however, would be more of a target for elimination since (A) the Githyanki would likely detect any measure of control they have over their queen and (B) to attempt to put an end to the organized resistance to their plans.

jasamcarl said:

Exactly its YOUR choice. Why are you setting up a scenario that is not directly supported beyond the broadest details and then tearing it down? Sort of an masochist thing going, huh?

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I do love this...

When an exacting example is given, the rebuttle is "that's in your game."

When a general example is given, the rebuttle is "not directly supported beyond the broadest details".

Yes, I can see why this conversation is going far.

First of all, we don't need this level of nastiness. The posts between each other need to be a LOT more civil, or else the topic needs not remain open.

Okay?

Ooo, Look! A kitten!

Numion said:

That wasn't your argument. Your argument was that the adventure wouldn't be possible as written since Illithid NPCs would've offed her a long time a go. D&D rules aren't meant for NPCs doing the adventures, so if you use them as such stupidness ensues.

EDIT: You see, if it wasn't done by characters controlled by actual human players, it was done by NPCs. You're constantly applying rules meant for PCs on things done by the NPCs. So you're not really doing it by the rules.

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By the rules, all is fair and balanced. As such, four 18th Level Illithid should be able to do exactly what four 18th Level Humans can do. If not, the system isn't as balanced as it claims to be.

Folks, I'm not in the mood for barely concealed hostility, even when it comes with a smiley. As a result, I'm just about poised to close this thread for a while to let people cool off. I'd prefer not to have to do so. Thus, please remember:

- no personal comments
- no insults
- try to see the other person's point of view
- don't take comments personally

Thanks. Don't post angry, and with luck it'll stay open.

EDIT - whoops, Henry beat me to it!

Even those familiar with canon would enjoy killing an iconic villian because it meant that their characters made a difference, so you do not have a monopoly on the 'passionate' majority. Why else? Because these creatures were already statted, and the hook made a available? Why shouldn't they put these things to use. Because care more for these fictional elements as a persistent (and less interesting) alternate reality than they do as a hook for a playable scenario?