[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

[jasamcarl]

Okay, let me put it this way: You are completely ignorant of what I can or can't do. This is nothing more than an attack, which your posts tend to contain more than a few of. This is why I refuse to take you seriously in this discussion: You have proven yourself unopen to discussion but would rather make assumptions about me and my game.

Well, here's an assumption: You're a jerk.

Hey, if you can't do it for Greyhawk, FR, or even the all but complelty undetailed core setting, and given the reasons you stated you could not, the conclusion was somewhat obvious? Hit a nerve did I? Suppose I'm being rediculous?

 

[Tiefling]

It's nice that you have an opinion. It's not relevant, but it's nice.

Now that wasn't very nice.

What you are describing is one paradigm for a campaign. There are others. There are, potentially an infinite number. I understand that according to yours, internal consistency is important.

It's not OBJECTIVELY important, though. Internally consistent campaigns aren't BETTER than inconsistent ones. You just happen to like them.

Yeah, I know. But what's the point of any sort of debate regarding what is and isn't good in D&D if you aren't allowed to be selfish as concerns style of play? I don't think that campaigns that don't follow my preferences are bad, nor do I consider their players/DMs inferior (I've repeatedly and specifically railed against such behaviour). I'm just stating what I like, and how I can be justified in not liking a particular element, given my preferences. I encourage others to do the same.

So? That's perfectly acceptable. Maybe not in your campaign, but who cares about your campaign?

What I mean is, there's no reason why a DM can't use meta-game elements to justify in-game elements. The fact that you don't like to do so is no evidence that it's wrong.

It's not wrong. It's fine.

Again, just stating my preferences and why my opinion is justified, given those preferences.

Right. So they're the only ones likely to complain that they never get to do anything fun.

Touche.

Again, you keep talking about your campaign as though it were everybody's campaign. Maybe my campaign doesn't have any of those factions she's so enmitous with. Maybe it's never had githyanki... until now.

So in your campaign there's a GLQ who is enmitizing various powerful factions. The GLQ in Dungeon doesn't depict yours.

This does not make the people at Dungeon wrong. Or fools, or incompetent or anything else. It just means they're not writing material for your campaign.

I know. I'm still just trying to explain how I or Bendris Noulg or any other person could be justified in not liking this. The post by jasamcarl that I quoted seemed, from my perspective, to be telling Bendris how things should be. You know, what the role of the PCs is supposed to be, what the purpose of the setting is, etc. I was responding with a different viewpoint.

 

[jasamcarl]

Uh huh...and all of this requires a series of events to have occured with the setting which Wotc has not alluded to. Namely that four illithids were able to get to the queen and murder her, which can have any number of mitiagating factors that they leave the dm to apply as he/she sees fit. And know, just because the 'history' described is consistent with 2e, doesn't mean that every detail applies; again, there was a reason those details were excluded in the first place from 3e. They are suppossed to represent elements dms use to create adventures, not create a rigidly detailed, consistent world.

And why the hell would an adventure need to include such information (life draining) when the main intereaction the pcs have will be to kill her? Sorry, most products are made for group utility, not for your mastubatory fantasy.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

And know, just because the 'history' described is consistent with 2e, doesn't mean that every detail applies; again, there was a reason those details were excluded in the first place from 3e. They are suppossed to represent elements dms use to create adventures, not create a rigidly detailed, consistent world.

When do I say that every historical element has to remain? I merely indicate what elements are included in 3E. Granted, you would like for me to say that, since it would provide some basis of insulting me yet again, but I haven't said it nor would I.

And why the hell would an adventure need to include such information (life draining) when the main intereaction the pcs have will be to kill her? Sorry, products are made for group utility, not for your mastubatory fantasy.

Actually, it is important since this effect would increase her power beyond that of a Githyanki/Sorcerer/Lich and would be relevant to the encounter.

 

[Tiefling]

jasamcarl, may I ask you why you keep quoting yourself and not adding anything?

By the way, all of you, it's "ridiculous," not "rediculous."

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Hey, if you can't do it for Greyhawk, FR, or even the all but complelty undetailed core setting, and given the reasons you stated you could not, the conclusion was somewhat obvious? Hit a nerve did I? Suppose I'm being rediculous?

Actually, throwing out twisted rules interpretations, silly NPC/PC ratio effects and other sorts of things are quite different than constantly insinuating someone's lack of ability. This is why you are a jerk and an ass, and I'll be happy to continue perceiving you as such since you continue to simply prove it true.

 

[Numion]

Numbers aren't required. Unless a DM dictates that less than 4 Mind Flayers exist in his world, and that each of these has less than 5 Class Levels, than they cannot threaten the Githyanki Lich-Queen. However, the creation/publication of an adventure in which four 18th Level characters can threaten her existance means that in any world in which four Illithid with at least 5 Class Levels exist that the Lich-Queen's continued existance is as good as forfeit. Since the default for the Mind Flayers is to dwell in cities (plural) of "two hundred to two thousand" (MM, 136), the chances of this are actually more likely than others are willing to admit.

You're still making assumption beyond the core setting and rules. Illithid cities don't follow the level distribution of demihuman cities, as presented in the DMG.

And you're still applying the rules used for PCs on the Illithids. PCs and NPCs aren't equal in D&D rules. Just look at the wealth charts for both.

And whats more important, the D&D setting doesn't say a word about NPCs going on adventures, which seem to be important in your arguments (the whole argument of running the adventure for 4 5th level illithid adventurers before the PCs get to it). DMG is 250 pages of info on how to adjudicate PCs on an adventure. 0 pages on how to run adventures for NPCs. Why do you cling on to that?

 

[Nightfall]

*thinks he'll start his own little thread war* Scarred Lands is the most balanced setting out there! *is kidding*

 

[Bendris Noulg]

You're still making assumption beyond the core setting and rules. Illithid cities don't follow the level distribution of demihuman cities, as presented in the DMG.

Ehr... When do I do this? I simply state that Mind Flayers will have levels (since their advancement in the MM is "by class level"); I don't indicate what the ratio of those levels are.

And you're still applying the rules used for PCs on the Illithids. PCs and NPCs aren't equal in D&D rules. Just look at the wealth charts for both.

True but irrelevent.

And whats more important, the D&D setting doesn't say a word about NPCs going on adventures, which seem to be important in your arguments (the whole argument of running the adventure for 4 5th level illithid adventurers before the PCs get to it). DMG is 250 pages of info on how to adjudicate PCs on an adventure. 0 pages on how to run adventures for NPCs. Why do you cling on to that?

True, but again not relevant. Considering 3E's "anything goes" attitude, running the adventure for 4 Illithid PCs (with the standard equipment for 4 PCs of 18th Level) is a viable, vallid and acceptable choice.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I go away for a few hours and you guys crank out 60+ posts and counting.

Hi Numion mate!

And you can make the Real version in Dungeon #100 just the avatar.

Indeed, in fact it should be relative simplicity to add the Demigod Template to her stats.

Now what were we arguing about?

The cosmological plausibility factor wherein the ruler of an entire race with numerous powerful enemies is merely 25th-level.

One thing about the adventure I am curious about (perhaps someone can tell me?), are there any provisos for what happens when and if the PCs either fail or succeed...the revenge of the Githyanki as it were? I can envision a number of scenarios but I am curious what the adventure details in this regard.