OSR Old school wizards, how do you play level 1?

Maxperson said:

While I think it's fantastic that you had a lot of fun, I wouldn't really call light an offensive spell.

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You can cast it on a monster's eyes to blind it. It can actually be quite strong in say a "boss" fight.

Snarf Zagyg said:

This is ... interesting, as it's another one of those examples of how people tended to just "wing it."

The rules are clear in 1e.

A character can only use the armors and weapons permitted by their class. PERIOD.

Among those weapons, they can wield weapons in which they are proficient with no penalty, and weapons that they are allowed (but not proficient) with a penalty.

Character Classes Table II provides the quick list of those weapons that you can use per class.
The Weapon Proficiency Table tells you the initial number of allowable weapons you are proficient in, and the rate that you gain proficiencies.


So, for example, the Magic User-
Allowable Weapons: Dagger, Dart, Staff
At level 1, you get to choose one (1) weapon to be proficient at.
You gain a proficiency every six (6) levels.
So Futzwizz, the Ungainly, starts at level 1 and chooses the staff.
At level 7, he adds a proficiency in darts.
At level 13, he adds a proficiency in his final weapon, the dagger.
And that's it.

This was always well-known, but did cause some ... edge issues. See, e.g., Dragon #56 Sage Advice:

Q. A bard is limited to the use of certain weapons. However, is it possible for a bard to use a weapon he was previously trained in (for instance, a bow), perhaps with a penalty involved?

A. Again, this is a matter simply resolved by realizing the Players Handbook means what it says. No, bards cannot use bows, because that weapon does not appear in the list of weapons permitted to the class. A character who intends to become a bard should make a point of gaining proficiency with at least some of the weapons usable by a bard, in addition to skills with weapons (such as the bow) which the character might prefer to employ during his tenure as a fighter. A bard-to-be might wisely decide to become proficient with bow and arrow, to improve his chances of surviving during his fighter phase. But the use of that weapon is prohibited when the character switches to the thief class, and it can never again be legally employed before or after the character actually becomes a bard.

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Except this runs afoul of the The Character with Two Classes rules. The bard begins as a fighter and then switches to thief, and then switches to bard.

According to The Character with Two Classes rules, you can use all the abilities of your former class(s). You just lose out on all experience for the current adventure.

"Furthermore, if, during the course of any adventure, the character resorts to the use of any of the capabilities of functions of his or her former class, the character gains no experience for the adventure."

Proficiencies would be part of the capabilities of the bard's former classes.

Maxperson said:

Except this runs afoul of the The Character with Two Classes rules. The bard begins as a fighter and then switches to thief, and then switches to bard.

According to The Character with Two Classes rules, you can use all the abilities of your former class(s). You just lose out on all experience for the current adventure.

"Furthermore, if, during the course of any adventure, the character resorts to the use of any of the capabilities of functions of his or her former class, the character gains no experience for the adventure."

Proficiencies would be part of the capabilities of the bard's former classes.

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wrong.

Bards are not characters with two classes; they are bards and have their own weapons table (see appendix II, Bards Table 3).


Again, I do enjoy a good debate over 1e rules, but people are not really remembering the rules. They are remembering the rules as they wanted them to be.

Very old editions had this idea that some character concepts (classes) could become powerhouses later if you paid the price of lagging behind earlier, hence the Wizard of old. It also tied with the typical narrative of literature Wizards being old.

From a gaming point of view I was never a fan of that idea, because it assumed you were going to play the game always from the beginning and then for a very long time, which just doesn't happen that often.

But I did want to play spellcasters since the first time I played D&D (not that I could, since we were rolling stats in order, so it took quite a few PCs before qualifying).

It was certainly frustrating to have one single spell to cast per day, but generally it simply meant that you couldn't really play a 'roll-play' kind of D&D where players are constantly pressing buttons on their keyboard... meaning: rolling attacks, casting spells, using special abilities every single turn as well as out of combat constantly to solve whatever challenge they see. You had to play a game where it was the PLAYER doing most of the job and not the character. Which means for example, a game where deciding where to look for traps or what to tell the guard or how to hide from monsters mattered more than rolling a check. In such a game, you have plenty of decisions to make all the time without 'pressing buttons', so it is not that terrible to be out of spells as a Wizard in the same way as the Fighter player is not complaining 'I have nothing to do out of combat', and there was a lot less combat back then!

Maxperson said:

While I think it's fantastic that you had a lot of fun, I wouldn't really call light an offensive spell.

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This was 1e. It could have been friends or push instead.

Li Shenron said:

Very old editions had this idea that some character concepts (classes) could become powerhouses later if you paid the price of lagging behind earlier, hence the Wizard of old. It also tied with the typical narrative of literature Wizards being old.

From a gaming point of view I was never a fan of that idea, because it assumed you were going to play the game always from the beginning and then for a very long time, which just doesn't happen that often.

But I did want to play spellcasters since the first time I played D&D (not that I could, since we were rolling stats in order, so it took quite a few PCs before qualifying).

It was certainly frustrating to have one single spell to cast per day, but generally it simply meant that you couldn't really play a 'roll-play' kind of D&D where players are constantly pressing buttons on their keyboard... meaning: rolling attacks, casting spells, using special abilities every single turn as well as out of combat constantly to solve whatever challenge they see. You had to play a game where it was the PLAYER doing most of the job and not the character. Which means for example, a game where deciding where to look for traps or what to tell the guard or how to hide from monsters mattered more than rolling a check. In such a game, you have plenty of decisions to make all the time without 'pressing buttons', so it is not that terrible to be out of spells as a Wizard in the same way as the Fighter player is not complaining 'I have nothing to do out of combat', and there was a lot less combat back then!

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well most fighters by 4th or 5th level had quite a few magic items so they did have "buttons" to push. also no skills so all those things we've silo'ed for rogues or other skill monkeys were just as possible for the fighter if the skill check could be made. the fighter having nothing to do out of combat is and always has been an player whining i can't do what they just did problem and 5e magic item rules just make it worse by reducing options for giving the non casters more buttons.

I'd also argue the bard actually made it worse. Now we are supposed to have a party face that in actuality causes many to sit back and let the charismatic one do all the non combat face time, while the rogue does all the non combat sneaky time and the mage and cleric do the other non combat stuff. Most players that land at old school tables are usually shocked that players will engage all the time not just in their silo. that's modern D&D's biggest issue in my opinion. All these silo's and archetypes to give everyone their own space also makes it seem like they shouldn't step out of those spaces.

Snarf Zagyg said:

wrong.

Bards are not characters with two classes; they are bards and have their own weapons table (see appendix II, Bards Table 3).


Again, I do enjoy a good debate over 1e rules, but people are not really remembering the rules. They are remembering the rules as they wanted them to be.

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I mean, it literally says that they start as fighters, change to thief, then change to bard. That's multiple classes. I looked at it last night. They are a class that begins as two classes and then are a special case that gets a third class. You start as a fighter and have to change classes between 5th and 7th level. Then you switch to thief until 5th to 8th level. Then you switch to bard.

"Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability..."

Voadam said:

This was 1e. It could have been friends or push instead.

View attachment 294219

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I had forgotten the blinding ability of light. It was so rarely used offensively back in the day.

Maxperson said:

I mean, it literally says that they start as fighters, change to thief, then change to bard. That's multiple classes. I looked at it last night. They are a class that begins as two classes and then are a special case that gets a third class. You start as a fighter and have to change classes between 5th and 7th level. Then you switch to thief until 5th to 8th level. Then you switch to bard.

"Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability..."

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Bards were the most broken implementation of multiclass in 1ed and to make it worse they broke the rule without specifically saying that it was broken and allowed 1/2 elves to be bards but the the rules specifically state they cant multiclass so by raw they actually can't get to the point of taking the bard level... they were almost as borked as the Psionics rules.

Maxperson said:

I had forgotten the blinding ability of light. It was so rarely used offensively back in the day.

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That fact was not in the 1e PH but secret knowledge in the DMG.

Light (Alteration) Reversible
Level: 1 Components: V, S
Range: 12” Casting Time: 4 segments
Duration: 6 turns + 1 turn/level Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: 2” radius globe
Explanation/Description: This spell causes excitation of molecules so as to make them brightly luminous. The light thus caused is equal to torch light in brightness, but its sphere is limited to 4” in diameter. It lasts for the duration indicated (7 turns at 1st experience level, 8 at 2nd, 9 at 3rd, etc.) or until the caster utters a word to extinguish the light. The light spell is reversible, causing darkness in the same area and under the same conditions, except the blackness persists for only one-half the duration that light would last. If this spell is cast upon a creature, the applicable magic resistance and saving throw dice rolls must be made. Success indicates that the spell affects the area immediately behind the creature, rather than the creature itself. In all other cases, the spell takes effect where the caster directs as long as he or she has a line of sight or unobstructed path for the spell; light can spring from air, rock, metal, wood, or almost any similar substance.

Light (Alteration)
Level: 1 Components: V, S
Range: 6” Casting Time: 1 segment
Duration: 1 turn/level Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: 2” radius globe
Explanation/Description: With the exceptions noted above, this spell is the same as the first level cleric light spell (q.v.).

DMG page 41:

Light: It should be noted that if this spell is cast upon the visage or before the visual organs of a creature, it will tend to blind it (rather as if a strong light were placed before its eyes), and its attacks and defenses will be a –4 on “to hit”, saving throws, and even armor class. Note also that the spell is not mobile, although it can be cast upon a movable or mobile object or creature.