OSR What does OSR mean to you? What do you value most in an OSR game?

[Mercurius]

To me its primarily about vibe and inspiration. The fact that there can be endless debate about what specific elements constitute the OSR, pretty much says that there is no specific or definitive combination of factors that scream "To be OSR, it must include ABC, but not XYZ."

Rather, I see it as going for a tone and style reminiscent of TSR D&D, particularly of the 70s and 80s (pre-White Wolf incursion into RPGs). Furthermore, it draws upon certain media as inspiration: Appendix N and their ilk, and also TSR D&D as a whole.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

To me its primarily about vibe and inspiration. The fact that there can be endless debate about what specific elements constitute the OSR, pretty much says that there is no specific or definitive combination of factors that scream "To be OSR, it must include ABC, but not XYZ."

Rather, I see it as going for a tone and style reminiscent of TSR D&D, particularly of the 70s and 80s (pre-White Wolf incursion into RPGs). Furthermore, it draws upon certain media as inspiration: Appendix N and their ilk, and also TSR D&D as a whole.

While there are some "clearly" OSR things that resemble late the 1E era, I think it mostly takes inspiration from the pre-Dragonlance era, when things were more lo-fi, less focused on stories and generally a little more gonzo and a generally more deadly.

S1 Tomb of the Horrors: OSR vibes
WG9 Gargoyle: Not OSR vibes

 

[Mercurius]

While there are some "clearly" OSR things that resemble late the 1E era, I think it mostly takes inspiration from the pre-Dragonlance era, when things were more lo-fi, less focused on stories and generally a little more gonzo and a generally more deadly.

S1 Tomb of the Horrors: OSR vibes
WG9 Gargoyle: Not OSR vibes

Yeah, I agree. But you could say that early 2E stuff like Spelljammer and Dark Sun is, at least, "OSR adjacent." But I hear you that Dragonlance was a big bifurcation and the first big "de-Gygaxation" of D&D (or maybe Ravenloft).

 

[Mercurius]

Or another way to put it, Spelljammer was a bit of a throwback to 70s-era science fantasy. Planescape, on the other hand, was very much influenced by White Wolf and went hogwire on "90s kewl." So you can see a split there.

 

[Mannahnin]

Or another way to put it, Spelljammer was a bit of a throwback to 70s-era science fantasy. Planescape, on the other hand, was very much influenced by White Wolf and went hogwild on "90s kewl." So you can see a split there.

I'm not sure the divide is so clear, for me. I might opine that they're more akin than split.

Spelljammer draws a bit on 50s-70s sci-fantasy, but to me it feels like one of the first products which really started to fall into the pattern of kind of fill in the blank design and D&D referencing itself for world-building. Ok, here is a high concept of fantasy races and magic in space (interestingly, Shadowrun came out the same year- fantasy races and magic in cyberpunk), and therefore here are the dwarf ships, and the elf ships, and the illithid ships. The large gamut of fantasy races and the Rock of Bral being akin to Mos Eisley bore some comparison to Star Wars, but not as much to older sci-fantasy which would often rationalize fantastic elements by reference to real world science (as you see Poul Anderson do in Three Hearts & Three Lions, say).

I agree that Planescape was definitely also high concept, drawing on D&D planar metaphysics and tying it into philosophical conflicts which drew from some of the same wells as White Wolf games. Sigil as a city campaign setting full of planar gates also reminds me of other contemporary concepts like Cynosure- the pan-dimensional city setting used by First Comics in the 80s. I saw this concept used multiple times in the late 80s and early 90s, including on BBS forums, the nascent social media of that era, and so when Planescape came out in '94 the setting fit right in with those concepts I had already been seeing in the fantasy & comics sphere. Edit: I've been reminded that '94 also saw the debut of TTRPG Nexus, the Infinite City, which may, too, be inspired by Cynosure.

 

[Arilyn]

I have a wide umbrella that OSR games fit under. Examples for me are:
OSE
Shadowdark
Crawford's Without Number series
Into the ODD
Troika
Mausritter
Beyond the Wall
Knave
Cairn
Mothership
Heart
Spire
His Majesty the Worm

Some of these are very different games, but feel OSR/NSR. I appreciate the imaginative settings and adventure material being produced for these games. I love the quirkiness found in a lot of these products.

Definitely not nostalgia for me, as I disliked D&D back in the day. Guess I'm NSR. The definition is definitely muddled and will stay that way. It feels like some OSR stuff is overlapping with some indie stuff, which has created some great games.

Personally, I'm not fond of OSR just meaning D&D retroclones because, to me, the playstyle will have little room to grow.

 

[Gus L]

I'm not sure the divide is so clear, for me. I might opine that they're more akin than split.

I tend to agree or even say that any split is artificial.

Spelljammer and Dark Sun were certainly a subject of discussion (in a positive way usually) back when the OSR scene was a going concern. I don't just mean on G+ either, where bespoke setting creation (or adaption) was a huge thing. Blogs, and even forum discussion in the early OSR period were not especially strict about where influences and ideas came from ... and the break with mainstream D&D in what would become OSR spaces was centered on 3.5E and later 4E ... not the exuberant/excessive setting creation of the late TSR era. Likewise, there is nothing in either setting that prevents them from being used to play an OSR style game. The usual distinction that remains is aesthetic. I don't ascribe to the claim that OSR can be defined purely as an aesthetic, or that to the degree it had an aesthetic that it would preclude sword & planet/swashbuckling science fantasy or sword & sorcery fantasy post apocalypse stuff.

As I've said before, one of the trends I've noticed in some Post-OSR spaces is a tendency to focus too much on finding an exact historical style of play and aesthetic that "OSR" must emulate. This doesn't match my experience with the OSR and I don't think it matches many other peoples' either. When things like Spelljammer, or even Mork Borg and Mothership are pushed out of the OSR and proclaimed "OSR adjacent" that's a historical revision, a Post OSR distinction, and usually about personal or ideological vendetta (for the original claimants at least).

Of course in another, limited technical sense Spelljammer, like Greyhawk, isn't "OSR" in that it's an old school setting, not an OSR one. Certainly though it's had some influence on OSR ideas though ... but likely less then Dark Sun.

 

[numtini]

Does that mean Dolmenwood is not OSR? Or what about Shadowdark with its Western Reaches? Or Worlds Without Number and its Latter Earth setting?

That's an interesting question. For Shadowdark, the Western Reaches are pretty much generic fantasy. It's pretty much designed to be dropped into any sort of D&D-ish setting. I'd say whether you consider it OSR or not depends mostly on rules. Is OSR limited to pure retroclones or is a modern 5E game stripped down for OSR play still OSR?

Dolmenwood has a solid OSR background and is meant to facilitate OSR style play, but it definitely feels different. In my mental categorization I put it with Glorantha and Symbaroum. I have a big scary magical forest in my game, but I couldn't just use Dolmenwood rules for it. So not really OSR?

 

[NN]

OSR is basically unwoke murderhoboism for an unholy alliance of grognards and hipsters
But it has its bad points as well.

 

[Umbran]

OSR is basically unwoke murderhoboism for an unholy alliance of grognards and hipsters
But it has its bad points as well.

Mod Note:
Wow. Someone pretty actively looking to get removed from the discussion for being insulting and hostile.
Okay, here you go, then.