D&D (2024) Comeliness and Representation in Recent DnD Art

@LesserThan Welcome to the boards, er to your first post. You now have the record for longest lurker without posting award. The last one was only like 15 years.

Argyle King said:

Not saying this is my position, but...

I think there's a possible argument that chainmail bikinis are "sex-positive" and fight against oppressive traditions that demand modesty and policing of the female body.

Contemporary culture contains various movements for whom promoting the ability to dress more freely and have more ownership over the body of one's self is important.

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Context is important here. Could a woman choose to wear a chainmail bikini as an expression of sexual liberation? Absolutely. Is it a good idea for an RPG book to display characters in chainmail bikinis for the same reason? Probably not, unless empowerment through reclaiming sexuality is a major theme of said RPG.

Vaalingrade said:

And as we've seen in the official handling of it in things like Dark Sun, D&D is not good at making that environment safe.

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Huh? Dark Sun, especially in its 4e incarnation, is typically held up as an example of a setting that handles sensitive topics well…

Charlaquin said:

Context is important here. Could a woman choose to wear a chainmail bikini as an expression of sexual liberation? Absolutely. Is it a good idea for an RPG book to display characters in chainmail bikinis for the same reason? Probably not, unless empowerment through reclaiming sexuality is a major theme of said RPG.

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Fair.

As said, I'm not claiming that as my position.

However, it's not that far from some real-world points of view.

Just as some who identify as male may fantasize about being a jacked and ruggedly sexy barbarian in a loincloth, some who identify as female may (and have the right to) visualize themselves as a bodacious battleaxe-brandishing bikini babe.

The great thing about variety is that everyone has a chance to enjoy something. It also creates the contrast that makes a given feature stand out. Even from an eye candy perspective we all have different tastes and they can go in some very different dielrections.

LesserThan said:

I hope I am quoting correctly. Not sure about all policies about cripping, only been reading this place since Eric created it and just now had something I wished to say.

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That’s awesome, glad to hear this discussion enticed you to contribute your perspective!

LesserThan said:

If some people are allowed to get away from persecution, then why are all not? There was some thing you said a few posts above that made me think of this, but this one really gave me reason to speak.

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I would say all should be able to, if they wish to.

LesserThan said:

in the 1970s, nerds were persecuted for playing a non-game. There were movies about Nerds being persecuted, 5 I think.

So is representation efforts an attempt to prevent persecution or to make more persecution? How can people get away from it in their "pretend play time", when representation efforts force that persecution?

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I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at here. Is your argument that broadening representation is somehow persecution against nerds? If so, could you elaborate on how you see this happening, and if not could you clarify what you did mean?

LesserThan said:

I am not sure what teifling has to do with LGBT, but am I just a wheelchair or a human? Why am I treated like an object now in games? Because I got old and injured? I am no longer allowed to "pretend play time" that I can walk?

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I don’t see how the inclusion of wheelchairs in D&D objectifies people who use wheelchairs in real life. And you are absolutely allowed to play a character who does not need a wheelchair. But there are also other people who use wheelchairs who want to be able to play characters who also use wheelchairs and they should be allowed to. For that matter, there are players who don’t use wheelchairs who might enjoy playing a character who uses a wheelchair, and that should be allowed to. Obviously if such a player is in a group with someone who does use a wheelchair, they would be well advised to check in with that player to make sure they’re not making that player uncomfortable by doing so.

LesserThan said:

Is comilness about representation? A teifling is a demon is it not? Why would LGBT literally demonize themselves? Demons in most literature are hated beings. Exterminators of human-kind.

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There are many reasons. A big part of it is reclaiming a symbol that has been used against us. Another is that we recognize something of our own experience in the factionalized experiences of Tiefling characters, and people often grow attachment to fictional characters who remind them of themselves.

LesserThan said:

Maybe I fail to see the connection with the teiflings other than, "Hey let me play an anime character", but it seems representation is abusing those it seeks to represent, from wheelchairs to "fat" as has been mentioned earlier.

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Abusing? In what way?

LesserThan said:

Why, in a fictional game must 9ur imaginations force simulation instead 9f fantasy? Are you saying that since I am in a wheelchair, I am not allowed to play Conan, as your other post mentioned, and I must and may only play bound to a wheelchair?

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No, you’re absolutely welcome to play Conan if that’s what you want to do. Likewise, other people should be allowed to play disabled, fat, or otherwise marginalized characters if they want to. It doesn’t have to be either/or, we can have both.

LesserThan said:

That seems a very insulting and denegrating mindset if that is what you are implying with the quoted and your previous Conan post.

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I apologize if my phrasing was insensitive. I was trying to express why someone might have an easier time identifying with a character who is alike them, as for example, my disabled partner does with disabled characters in D&D. If this doesn’t resonate with your own experience, that’s fine. It takes all sorts.

LesserThan said:

Nobody should have that power, not you, not Hasbro, not Piazo, not Chasium, not Palladium, not FASA, etc; to exact that much power over other people's "pretend play time". This "push" in the industry seems to not understand what effect it is having to the hobby, and making people feel "lesser than", pun intended, human.

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I’m sorry, what power are you referring to?

LesserThan said:

Who at your table persecutes you personally when you play a teifling?

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Huh? Nobody persecutes me personally. In some settings, Tieflings in general are persecuted because of their fiend heritage, and personally I enjoy playing Tieflings in such settings. I like to roleplay overcoming such adversity. But, again, I have friends who would not enjoy that, and that is a valid choice as well.

LesserThan said:

Thanks for reading and answering.

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You’re quite welcome!

TheSword said:

You need a bit more Britishness in your RPGs. Folks not afraid to show the world as it is. Join WFRP!

These are all player characters art by the way from the latest core rulebook. Not NPCs.

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I actually use Warhammer art frequently in my games

Argyle King said:

Fair.

As said, I'm not claiming that as my position.

However, it's not that far from some real-world points of view.

Just as some who identify as male may fantasize about being a jacked and ruggedly sexy barbarian in a loincloth, some who identify as female may (and have the right to) visualize themselves as a bodacious battleaxe-brandishing bikini babe.

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Two things here: First off, yes, there are surely some women who do fantasize about that. However, in my experience when women fantasize about being sexy and powerful, it usually doesn’t take quite that form. The jacked, rugged Barbarian in a loincloth is a male-oriented fantasy of masculine power and sex appeal. The bodacious battleaxe-brandishing bikini babe is a male-oriented fantasy of feminine power and sex-appeal. When women design female characters to be powerful and sexy, it usually isn’t in that way. Not that it can’t ever be, it’s just much less common.

ezo said:

It is very much opposites most of the time:

1. Having art that is representative of the people who play.
2. Having art that is representative of what people want their PCs to look like.

Unless you want your PC to look like you, not simply represent you, the two don't really meet well IME.

Of course, both types can be present in the game.

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Both can be present on the same character. There's "I want my character to be a good looking, buff barbarian" and "I'd also like them to be my gender and approximate ethnicity". These are not exclusive.

Charlaquin said:

Two things here: First off, yes, there are surely some women who do fantasize about that. However, in my experience when women fantasize about being sexy and powerful, it usually doesn’t take quite that form. The jacked, rugged Barbarian in a loincloth is a male-oriented fantasy of masculine power and sex appeal. The bodacious battleaxe-brandishing bikini babe is a male-oriented fantasy of feminine power and sex-appeal. When women design female characters to be powerful and sexy, it usually isn’t in that way. Not that it can’t ever be, it’s just much less common.

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I don't necessarily disagree with that.

I have had some anecdotal experience which runs counter to that, but I am also aware that experience is skewed due to a previous occupation putting me in contact with people who (I surmise) likely think differently than the average 'norm.'

I still think that, in a world increasingly influenced by Instagram models, Influencers, women in WWE, and E-girls; the desire to "look hot" in something like a chainmail bikini might be more common than it may have been at other points in time.

Though, so as to not risk running afoul of forum rules or culturally-modern sensibilities that may get the thread shut down, I feel it's best for me to not comment further on whether or not a particular gender has a tendency toward manifesting fantasy in a particular way.

All things considered, I think my personal view on the chainmail bikini is that I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other.