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D&D General Hands slot economy

So is someone using this sort of more codified rules in their games, and to which D&D edition (or other RPG) are you applying them to?

edit: actual question highlighted for clarity

Idk if this will be particularly illuminating for you, but I'm in the process of gradually introducing a light hand/slot system that ppl have proposed from the OSR/adjacent spaces into my 5E campaign.

But it's mostly for out-of-combat instances? Like inquiring before PCs proceed into a dungeon, or when there happens to be a change-of-venue, what each character is bearing in hand.

This is also good for me as a reminder as to who is carrying a light source if needed.

If they are wearing a belt, what is at-hand off that.

Should they set off a trap, roll poorly negotiating hazardous terrain (fall prone into water), take a tumble, fall, are surprised by a monster before combat begins, etc., a check to see if they happen to lose what they're carrying in their hands, or something that might've not been stowed as securely on them (e.g. abstracted supply, certain tools, a trinket) etc.
 
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So is someone using this sort of more codified rules in their games, and to which D&D edition (or other RPG) are you applying them to?
I actually have pretty rigid rules when it comes to free-hand use and such in my games.

This is mainly for 5E now since that is what I currently play. "FOI" = free object interaction. You can forego movement to gain an additional FOI on your turn (this allows someone to draw two weapons).
  1. You can drop anything held in either or both hands (no action cost) at any time.
  2. You can give something held to another person on their turn using your reaction (otherwise you must "drop it"). They will either use a FOI to take the item or Use an Object action.
  3. A two-handed weapon can be carried in one hand, but you must have the other hand free on your turn to attack. You must use a FOI to place your second hand on your weapon prior to attacking.
  4. You must have a hand free to cast any spell which requires a material or somatic component. If a spell requires both, you must have both hands free. The War Caster feat allows you the "use of one less hand" (so, no hands free for material or somatic, and only one hand free for both material and somantic components). If your material component or spell focus are not already in hand, you can use a FOI to get them in hand before casting.
  5. Performing a Strength (Althetics) check to climb or swim (unless you have a climb or swim speed) with only one free hand is at disadvantage. The Athltete feat removes this restriction.
And there are probably others. I do whatever narratively makes the most sense in combat given (a) a round is only 6 seconds long and (b) a creature is likely under attack, defending itself, being on the lookout for danger, or whatever. Most people think about (a) but don't consider (b) as much as they should IMO. It is one reason why I will never allow the use of a healing potion (or any potion) as a bonus action. Of course, if you have the potion in hand, drinking it would simply be a FOI... However, most of the time the FOI is getting the potion "in hand" in the first place.

NOTE: Using an FOI provokes Oppotunity Attacks when you are interacting with an object not on your person (i.e. picking something up, opening a door) at the DM's discretion (I warn players if it will).

Other Notes (House-rules):
  • Sling has the loading property.
  • Crossbow Expert does not allow you to ignore the loading property. (Utter nonsense!)
  • A "hand-held" shield does not allow you to hold anything else in that hand, however can be equipped using your FOI instead of your action.
  • A "strapped" shield requires your action to equip, but allows you to hold another object while using it.
 

I rarely see this issue raised with dual wielders or two-handed weapon wielders, almost always, it's "sword and board" (usually making the argument that a shield stays strapped to your arm even if you open your hand to use it while spellcasting).

I would simply apply a dose of common sense to the rules as written:

Getting Into and Out of Armor (p146, 2014 PHB):
The time it takes to don or doff armor depends on the armor's category.
Don: This is the time it takes to put on armor. You benefit from the armor's AC only if you take the full time to don the suit of armor.
Doff: This is the time it takes to take off armor. If you have help, reduce this time by half.

Shield: 1 action to Don, 1 action to Doff.

I would further look at the 2024 Player's Handbook, p. 219 where the rules state "a creature can... wield only one Shield at a time."

(Note: Don and doff times are omitted for shields in the 2024 PHB)

In my head, the choice of "wield" (instead of "wear") is telling - wielding does not mean "carrying" - it means "to hold and use" (that's what the Oxford English Dictionary tells me, emphasis mine).

Therefore, one does not gain an AC bonus for simply "carrying a shield strapped to one's arm" - one must actively dedicate a hand to "hold and use" the shield.

Since a shield is strapped to your arm, it is not "dropped to the ground" when not in use (just as a weapon strapped to one's wrist would not drop to the ground) but the game already assumes that all items in your inventory are considered "carried" unless explicitly dropped (except for items like armor which are worn/donned to gain their benefits, but those have their own explicit don/doff rules). Similarly, the game assumes you cannot use a carried item unless it is "Readied" - usually one's carried weapon (and shield) are readied in advance of combat, so they usually start in a "Ready" state.

Now we can apply a couple of common-sense rules for "hand economy" (assuming here the typical humanoid "two hands").

1. A character has two hands with which to wield/hold items.
2. The rules for some weapons explicitly require both hands be wielding the weapon in order to attack with it. Likewise, some items do not grant a bonus for wielding two items of the same type ("a creature can... wield only one Shield at a time").
3. Anything that does not explicitly require two hands requires one hand.
4. By 1 and 3 above, a character may only ever wield a maximum of two items at once.
5. When a shield is not actively wielded, the character does not gain the shield's AC bonus (see above - one must "wield" a shield).
6. Page 190, 2014 PHB: "You can... interact with one object of feature of the environment for free, during your move or action (... you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack)." This is commonly referred to as making one "Object Interaction" on your turn, though technically note it must be a part of either the character's (Regular) Action or Move Action (thus Bonus Actions and Reactions do not allow the "free object interaction").
7. For spellcasting: "if a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures" and also "a spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components" (2014 PHB, p. 203). This means unless a spell has only verbal components, one hand must be "free" (which I think can reasonably be defined as "not wielding any object").

Let's apply this to some specific cases:

1. A two-handed weapon wielder wants to cast a spell on their turn that requires somatic/material components. They probably cast the spell using their (Regular) Action since if they use a Bonus Action for spellcasting, they don't get the "free" object interaction (note this means a spell cast using a Bonus action burns the character's Bonus Action AND their Action by the rules as written). They would probably use this interaction to change from "wielding my sword" to "freeing my hand for somatic gestures, possibly also grabbing a material component" while doing so. Since the character's hand is now "free" they could not use a Reaction to attack with their two-handed weapon as they are no longer wielding it with two hands and Reaction does not grant a free object interaction until their next turn... when they could use their free object interaction with their Action or Move Action to return their hand(s) to their sword.

2. A sword-and-board wielder wants to cast a spell on their turn that requires somatic/material components. They probably cast the spell using their (Regular) Action. They can either stop wielding their weapon (stow or drop it; to my mind sheathing a weapon is a valid object interaction so I really don't care if you strap it to your wrist to keep it from dropping... you can stow it) or stop wielding their shield in order to free up their hand. If they chose to stop wielding their weapon, like the two-weapon fighter, they cannot use a Reaction to attack until their next turn when they may interact with their weapon for free with their Action or Move Action to re-draw it (re-wield it). If they chose to stop wielding their shield, they lose the AC bonus from the shield until they re-ready it ("don it" if you prefer), probably on the following turn - depending on whether your GM uses the 2024 rules where shields don't explicitly have a don time, this could be an object interaction during their Action or Move Action the next turn or if they use the 2014 rules, donning the shield would require your action. I would tend to lean toward the 2024 interpretation myself.

Note in both cases above, you could not use the "free object interaction" with your Action to free up a hand and then use another "free object interaction" on the same turn with your Move Action to re-ready the object, since you only get ONE free object interaction per turn and the second interaction takes your Action (which you probably had to use to cast a spell); I can see a case for taking a Move Action and using your free object interaction during your move to free a hand for spellcasting, using a Bonus Action to cast a spell, then returning your hand to your weapon/shield with your Action, but this ONLY works for spells that can be cast with a Bonus Action (similarly, getting extra Actions by virtue of something like a Haste spell might let you use the second Action to return a hand to your weapon).

Generally, I think the "problem" here ("I want to cast spells and fight at the same time") is that players don't like resource constraints on what they can do and want to be able to use all their cool abilities at once with no downside... and most GMs don't like imposing constraints or imposing downsides ("feels bad"). But by the rules as written a little common sense around the basic meaning of the word "wield" this seems trivially easy to implement and I've been using something similar for years, though not as explicitly codified as the above... and to me, having options with drawbacks where the player gets to select the drawback they want makes for more interesting gameplay, not less.
 
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This is mainly for 5E now since that is what I currently play. "FOI" = free object interaction. You can forego movement to gain an additional FOI on your turn (this allows someone to draw two weapons).
  1. You can drop anything held in either or both hands (no action cost) at any time.
  2. You can give something held to another person on their turn using your reaction (otherwise you must "drop it"). They will either use a FOI to take the item or Use an Object action.
  3. A two-handed weapon can be carried in one hand, but you must have the other hand free on your turn to attack. You must use a FOI to place your second hand on your weapon prior to attacking.
  4. You must have a hand free to cast any spell which requires a material or somatic component. If a spell requires both, you must have both hands free. The War Caster feat allows you the "use of one less hand" (so, no hands free for material or somatic, and only one hand free for both material and somantic components). If your material component or spell focus are not already in hand, you can use a FOI to get them in hand before casting.
  5. Performing a Strength (Althetics) check to climb or swim (unless you have a climb or swim speed) with only one free hand is at disadvantage. The Athltete feat removes this restriction.
And there are probably others. I do whatever narratively makes the most sense in combat given (a) a round is only 6 seconds long and (b) a creature is likely under attack, defending itself, being on the lookout for danger, or whatever. Most people think about (a) but don't consider (b) as much as they should IMO. It is one reason why I will never allow the use of a healing potion (or any potion) as a bonus action. Of course, if you have the potion in hand, drinking it would simply be a FOI... However, most of the time the FOI is getting the potion "in hand" in the first place.

NOTE: Using an FOI provokes Oppotunity Attacks when you are interacting with an object not on your person (i.e. picking something up, opening a door) at the DM's discretion (I warn players if it will).

Other Notes (House-rules):
  • Sling has the loading property.
  • Crossbow Expert does not allow you to ignore the loading property. (Utter nonsense!)
  • A "hand-held" shield does not allow you to hold anything else in that hand, however can be equipped using your FOI instead of your action.
  • A "strapped" shield requires your action to equip, but allows you to hold another object while using it.
Interesting set of House rules. I think a lot of people have latched on to "Free Object Interactions" as "You Get One of These per turn" when the RAW say that you get one FOI during a Move or Action and to make second interaction, you have to use your Action. I note your rules allow you to convert a Move Action into an FOI to allow drawing two weapons (while still leaving your Action available for an attack). Not sure I'd want to do that as a GM but it's your game.

I'm also not so sure about your rule 4 since the RAW say one free hand is sufficient for both Material and Somatic components, but I don't see this as awful (though some might).

Honestly, all of this seems to fall at the feet of the fact that D&D has a bit of a weird action economy where Moves and Actions and Bonus Actions and "Actions granted by haste" are not quite interchangeable. I think the PF2E ruleset did a better job making the action economy easier to understand, and I even see what DC20 was going for by rolling PF2E's one "Reaction" into just another "Action" and allowing for multiple Reactions "out of turn" but a discussion on the action economy of various systems isn't what this thread is gunning for, I don't think.
 

I think that with 5e that the infinitely quantum hands scenario is kind of a manufactured problem that the system bends over backwards to enshrined on too many aspects of the rules for any sort of easy fix. You can limit things with some object interaction bandaid like post 23 covers, but it will ultimately come off as adversarial and maybe arbitrary if players choose to spike the effort by just just ignoring it and feign confusion "I don't understand" every time the GM needs to say no to a slightly different flavor of multiple object interaction. Unfortunately this is an area of the rules that needed to be strict by default with a trivial "some GM's like to loosen x y z & q by telling players that their table to ignore the limit".

I've also seen tables where the rule is "you get to move once & do one thing on your turn and then it's someone else's turn. If your action needs an 'snd then' or similar it needs to wait till your next turn". The quantum hand problem is sidestepped by a much more broad restriction since it's pretty tough to have multiple object interactions as part of "one thing"
 


Interesting set of House rules. I think a lot of people have latched on to "Free Object Interactions" as "You Get One of These per turn" when the RAW say that you get one FOI during a Move or Action and to make second interaction, you have to use your Action.
Sense these are basically the same thing, sure.

I note your rules allow you to convert a Move Action into an FOI to allow drawing two weapons (while still leaving your Action available for an attack). Not sure I'd want to do that as a GM but it's your game.
Personally, I have run into it enough times where to get "two OI" you have use your FOI and then Use an Object, but the PC didn't need to move, that it made sense if you do the FOI during your move or action, why not allow your move to grant another FOI since you have the Use an Object action to get a second OI.

It works very well IME and the players like having the versatility it brings in some cases. If you're ever inclined to try it I recommend it, but it might not sit well with you in the end.

I'm also not so sure about your rule 4 since the RAW say one free hand is sufficient for both Material and Somatic components, but I don't see this as awful (though some might).
Yeah, I see that RAW as crap IMO so I don't do it. It is also a bit of a nerf to casters, which is no bad thing IME.

Sounds like you really put a lot of thoughts into it! 👍
LOL I have, but 95% of the time it is basic common sense and what follows with the narrative. I just like to let new players know up front this is basically how I do it so they aren't surprised when they try to do something and I veto it due to such rules.
 

That doesn't directly answer my question, but I get that you are playing 5e?

So, in the context of 5e for you, are you using the 5e rules for how you use objects in your hands during combat strictly as-written, or are you using them only roughly/approximately?
I just use the 5.5e Rules As Written for holding and swapping objects in your hands. They are rather lenient if you are just trying to do something remotely realistic like switch weapons in combat, but they do prevent obviously silly stuff like your examples of climbing with a greatsword in your teeth or tattooing your holy symbol on your forehead.
 

I just use the 5.5e Rules As Written for holding and swapping objects in your hands. They are rather lenient if you are just trying to do something remotely realistic like switch weapons in combat,
yeah, hand management is boring, slows the game down are really brings nothing to the game.
OFC, there are always bonkers ideas on what can you juggle in your hands and those need to go away, but if you come with an idea, you better demonstrate it yourself somewhat effectively and your character can do it.
but they do prevent obviously silly stuff like your examples of climbing with a greatsword
well, I would ask for Athletics or Acrobatics check.
you get 1d6 damage per 5ft climb as greatsword wobbles and cut's into your mouth.
DC 10 half damage, DC20 no damage
in your teeth or tattooing your holy symbol on your forehead.
no there is an idea for a magic item similar to Tasha's magic focuses for classes.

Magic focus tatoo.
Uncommon, requires attunement
you gain +1 magic bonus to spell attacks and your spell DCs
tattoo replaces your need for M components that are not consumed by the spell and replaces your need for S components.
You still need to use V componets(this can break Stealth, depending on distance and I would not take everything from Sorcerers subtle metamagic with a single item)
 

and as for shields and spellcasting:

1742639999246.jpeg

here is your shield/lantern/free hand for spellcasting/offhand-light weapon for TWF combo for just 99 gold and 99 coppers.
 

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