D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

Looks like you’re pretty set on Strength, Dexterity (fine motor skills), Athletics (gross motor skills), Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Perception as ability scores.

The problem I ran into with Perception as a stat was that you then need another skill that equates to perception, like « roll a Perception-alertness check », at which point alertness just becomes the new king-of-all-skills.
When Perception is an ability, the skills depend on what the character is trying to perceive.

If they are trying to notice if anyone is hiding, they make a Perception (Stealth) test. If they are trying to track a target thru the wilderness, they roll Perception (Survival). If they are trying to identify the scent of a potion, it is Perception (Arcana). If they are looking for structural cracks in a building that is about to collapse, it is Perception (Nature), where Nature represents the science (or protoscience) of physics including materials science.
 

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Similarly, if Athletics becomes an ability score, what would the current Athletics skill become? What skill would be used to escape a villain example, or wrestle an opponent?
The Athletics skill (maybe called Gymnastics to combine Athletics-Acrobatics) is for mobility challenges (running, jumping, tumbling, somersaulting, landing a fall, climbing, catching a fall, balancing, stunts during flight, or so on).

Probably Grappling / Unarmed Combat, makes sense as its own skill. I would normally use the Athletics ability for it.

Lifting would be a skill primarily for Strength representing power lifting, so Strength remains the "break doors / bend bars / lift gates" ability. Maybe also, a Constitution (Lifting) check makes sense for avoiding encumbrance when carrying heavy loads over time.
 
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When Perception is an ability, the skills depend on what the character is trying to perceive.

If they are trying to notice if anyone is hiding, they make a Perception (Stealth) test. If they are trying to track a target thru the wilderness, they roll Perception (Survival). If they are trying to identify the scent of a potion, it is Perception (Arcana). If they are looking for structural cracks in a building that is about to collapse, it is Perception (Nature), where Nature represents the science (or protoscience) of physics including materials science.
Ohhhhh, I see.

makes me wonder though if other ability scores aren’t too narrow in scope then.
 

I'd rework things into five attributes:

Physique — Strength, brawn, bulk, endurance, resilience, athleticism, balance.
-- Athletics, HP, physical damage, physical resistance

Finesse — Dexterity, fine manipulation, misdirection, reaction speed, evasiveness.
-- Accuracy, Crits, AC, Initiative, Stealth, Sleight of Hand

Knowledge — Education, learning, reasoning, problem solving, perceptiveness.
-- # Skills, tactics, evasion, Medicine, Investigation, Survival, Perception

Personality — Force of will, charisma, connections, presence, social graces, streetwise.
-- Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Animal Handling, Insight

Essence — Connection with the arcane/divine, magical power.
-- Spell Level, spell power, magic resistance
 

I'd rework things into five attributes:

Physique — Strength, brawn, bulk, endurance, resilience, athleticism, balance.
-- Athletics, HP, physical damage, physical resistance

Finesse — Dexterity, fine manipulation, misdirection, reaction speed, evasiveness.
-- Accuracy, Crits, AC, Initiative, Stealth, Sleight of Hand

Knowledge — Education, learning, reasoning, problem solving, perceptiveness.
-- # Skills, tactics, evasion, Medicine, Investigation, Survival, Perception

Personality — Force of will, charisma, connections, presence, social graces, streetwise.
-- Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Animal Handling, Insight

Essence — Connection with the arcane/divine, magical power.
-- Spell Level, spell power, magic resistance

Knowledge and Personality can wield spells, analogous to Physique and Finesse wielding weapons. So to me, Essence looks inessential. Altogether it looks to like the "deep four": STR, DEX, CHA, and INT.

Regarding the assigned mechanics, it is impossible to separate "athleticism" from "reaction speed" and "evasiveness". Whichever ability gets the athleticism and balance also gets "reflex" and evasive dodging "AC" − sometimes to literally leap out of the way of an explosion.

When comparing Olympic extremes, the powerlifter isnt necessarily the somersaulting gymnast. Physique in the sense of muscle can exhibit "strength, brawn, bulk", without being "athletic" in the sense of gymnastic and mobile.


Personally I feel Deception needs to be Knowledge (Intelligence-Perception). To be able to create a forgery so convincing it can deceive the experts, requires extraordinarily high knowledgeability and perceptiveness. This is true whether one is trying to deceive bankers, archeologists, or government agents. The challenge is more about replication and simulation than deception. So even an artist creating a "realistic" painting, is using this Deception skill. Likewise the illusionist creating a convincing sensory experience − even if for entertainment.

When someone is roleplaying a character, the way an actor does. This is more like a Charisma (Performance) check. It is normally good enough to "pass" as an anonymous person in the street. But any attempt to withstand investigative scrutiny requires Intelligence (Deception) or maybe Perception (Deception) in order to imitate precisely and convincingly.


There is a correlation between being courageous oneself, thus having a confidence that can intimidate others, or oppositely, inspiring friends to also be confident alongside oneself. Here I am experimenting with giving Intimidation and Morale to Wisdom courageousness. It kinda works.


My understanding of the abilities is something like the following.

Physique —
STRENGTH: brawn, bulk -- brute Attack (that smashes thru defenses), physical damage, throw, Lifting, break doors.
CONSTITUTION: endurance, resilience, health, physical resistance -- Fortitude save, HP, Heavy Armor AC, load carrying.

Finesse —
DEXTERITY: fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination, quick hands, gesticulative misdirection, feinting a weapon attack, precise manual manipulation -- precision Attack, finesse weapon, steady-aim missile weapon, Crit, Stealth, Sleight of Hand (Sleight to pick a lock, do precise calligraphy, anything requiring a quick or steady hand).
ATHLETICS: gross motor skills, body sense, balance, gymnastics, athleticism, mobility, evasiveness, reaction -- Reflex save, agile AC, Speed, Jump, Climb, Balance, Fall, Swim, grappling, aerial stunt.

Knowledge —
INTELLIGENCE: learning, education, self-teaching, intuition, logic, problem solving, psychic prophecy, divination, any means to arrive at knowledge and understanding -- spell DC, technological (?) precalculated (?) Attack, all Knowledge skills (Nature, Survival, Medicine, History, etcetera), Investigation.
PERCEPTION: heightened five senses, alertness, awareness of surroundings -- Perception save (versus hiddenness, invisibility, deception, illusion, blindness, deafness, or the Unconscious condition), Combat Initiative, avoiding Surprise, any skill to detect physical sensory information (whether obscured by something or almost imperceptibly faint) regarding a sound, a scent, or a sight, Deception (including to create a replica).

Personality —
CHARISMA: all social skills, people skills, emotional intelligence, influence, social status, honor, social graces, people reading, crowd reading, crowd pleasing, social connections, accurate psychology, empathy, telepathy, detect the intent to hide information, detect needs, discern motives, artistic beauty, self-expression, charm factor, innate magic, luck, successfulness, aura of influence, esthetics, valuable artwork, talented acting, music, painting, personal presence, larger than life, celebrity, social icon, psychological archetype -- spell DC, mental Attack, Innate Spellcasting (without spell components), Detect Magic, sense when someone is watching, Persuasion, inflict Charmed condition, Insight, Animal Handling, Persuasion to gather information from people (whence streetwise), Honor, Social Status, diplomacy, etiquette, Performance (for all artistic and esthetic presentations, from acting to painting to gem cutting), when crafting an item make the appropriate check with whatever ability for technical skill but then make a separate Performance check to determine its esthetic value and how much it is worth.
WISDOM: sanity, self-control, willpower, focus, concentration, meditation, states of consciousness, confidence, know thyself, authenticity, courage, implaccability, resolute, relentless, ominous, haunting, fateful inevitability, intimidating, emboldening, encouraging, boosting morale against danger -- Will save (versus Charmed, Frigthened, Dominated, Suggestion, Insanity, and emotional manipulation), Concentration, Magic Resistance, mental health sanity checks, Intimidation, inflict Frightened condition, remove Frightened condition, Morale.
 
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Getting rid of the original six ability scores = Not D&D anymore. I say that with no judgement, as I think it's a fine task to draft up a new rpg which might have better balanced mechanics. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but reality asserts itself and the vast majority of players I know of will not consider that new system to be D&D, and most will shrug off the task of learning a new system as 'too complicated' and dismiss it without making the mental effort to read/understand it (even if the new system makes more sense and streamlines and simplifies everything).

I really like what Nimble/Nimble 5E is trying to do, but even though I bought the full rpg, one glance at the ability scores (also folded into 4 instead of 6, which many people on this thread are rightfully promoting the benefits of) tells me that most players I know will not play it. Which is fine, I don't need to make potential players do a ton of homework on a new system, I can just draw out and use the best parts.

I think using the same six scores but adding just a little 'jazz' on the ability scores that aren't as glamourous is a more attractive (for players) solution. The goal imo is to make a player rolling up a character stress about his choices as all the ability scores should be equally attractive/useful.

I was researching lots of house rule mechanics and mechanisms from other games that might be easily ported over, and I think it's from 'Blades in the Dark' (I've never played it and don't own it, so I could be getting the rpg game wrong, please forgive me) that has the Flashforward and Flashback mechanisms. I instantly loved both, and my immediate instinct was that these 2 could be just the ticket to sprucing up Intelligence and Wisdom.

A 'Flashback' is often used in movies (most often heist movies like the Ocean's series) where the narrative has shown you the protagonist is in a no-win situation and suddenly pulls a deus-ex-machina out of his pocket. While this is not good storytelling, the film will then use a flashback to give a good reason why the deus-ex-machina exists, giving a real-world explanation rather than 'plot armor'. In an rpg game, the character could burn a flashback point to rewrite history in a small way. "I know I don't have it on my character sheet and we didn't discuss it, but I do have some wolfsbane. I'm using a flashback point to go back to this morning when I was packing my gear and I because my character knew it would be useful he grabbed some wolfsbane and threw it in'.

It's meant to allow a character to retro-actively be more clever through demonstrating better planning. So it could easily be a function of the Intelligence stat. A high intelligence score could allow a character access to 1-3 flashbacks per adventure. So it's not like you're hitting harder or moving faster, but a well-applied flashback could absolutely impact combat. Perhaps drastically. To balance it out, perhaps low-level intelligence characters have a flashback penalty that negatively affects the number of flashbacks the party has. "You're so dumb Clem that it's rubbing off on me!"

Flashforwards are envisioning of future events. "I've got a bad feeling about this..." is probably used by DMs a lot to try to herd a party away from a TPK, but imagine a method of player-initiated flashfowards, which are indeed a re-writing of history or even an effective time jump. A 1st level party charges through a dungeon door shouting 'Leroy Jenkins' only to come face to face with a Tarrasque. They're done for, but the character with high Wisdom (intuition) immediately calls out "I burn a flashforward point to take us back to before we opened that door!" And this is explained narratively similarly to how movies to it: the character was in a slight daze, because he was receiving a vision of danger in the immediate future, and jolts awake to stop his party from charging to their deaths. Again, high Wisdom would grant 1-3 flashforwards that could be employed per adventure (depending on how high the Wis score is) and also could be balanced by having low Wis characters be a negative drag on the party's total available flashforward pool.

Incorporating these in character creation makes these abilities much more attractive to players as opposed to dump stat neglection. And the beauty is after initial roll-up, it's all on the players to decide to use/not use these mechanisms, so one less thing that the DM has to worry about remembering.

I think Charisma is pretty useful in social play, so I'm not sure it needs bumping up, but I like the idea that maybe there's some way to grant extra Luck points under certain conditions or maybe high Cha characters somehow get marginally more Inspiration points to spend. Not sure.

Confused though why Constitution would need beefing up. Granting bonus hp every level up all the way to max level seems like it's doing enough heavy lifting to me?
 

Your comments are interesting, and I want to explore Flashback and Flashforward.

Before I do, I want to address when "tradition" becomes unhealthy. I too dislike learning new systems. I now use D&D 5e 2024 now for every genre. I rely on D&D. All the more reason D&D needs to function well.

I think using the same six scores but adding just a little 'jazz' on the ability scores that aren't as glamourous is a more attractive (for players) solution. The goal imo is to make a player rolling up a character stress about his choices as all the ability scores should be equally attractive/useful.
Designers have been trying to 'jazz' up the six abilities for 50 years and relentlessly fail. It is unhealthy to continue the doomed quest.

The main problem is, Dexterity is disruptively better than Strength and Constitution. Similarly, Wisdom is disruptively better than Intelligence and Charisma. Generally, the physical abilities are better than the mental abilities. The only solution toward balance is either to split Dexterity and Wisdom up, or oppositely figure out how to lump them a bit better. Generally find ways to improve the mental abilities in combat.

Dexterity is broken (unbalanced). But to split Balance away from Athletics is wrong and ignorant. It also harms the game by forcing a double investment in both Strength and Dexterity which as-is is almost strictly self-defeating. The ignorance about how the body functions athletically also cripples the agile, gymnastic, swashbuckling genre from functioning well in D&D.

Note, the situation is a bit different for casters. These can become single-ability-dependent, especially with regard to Charisma. As a separate consideration which is easy to accomplish, the casters need to depend on at least two mental abilities − similar to how a Fighter needs to depend on at least two physical abilities.

There are ways to make the abilities healthy. But it requires relaxing the dysfunctional fixation.

D&D (especially 5e including both 5.14 and 5.24) is a great system. It mostly works well and is remarkably robust. There is no reason to fear fixing the abilities. It will mostly be tweaks with the tradition continuing to shine thru.


Having four abilities still preserves the D&D-isms:
Strength, Dexterity, Charisma, and Intelligence.

Having eight abilities still preserves the D&D-isms:
Strength-Constitution, Dexterity-Athletics, Charisma-Wisdom, Intelligence-Perception.


If six abilities are actually possible at all, it would require redefinitions far beyond 'jazzing up'.
 

I was researching lots of house rule mechanics and mechanisms from other games that might be easily ported over, and I think it's from 'Blades in the Dark' (I've never played it and don't own it, so I could be getting the rpg game wrong, please forgive me) that has the Flashforward and Flashback mechanisms. I instantly loved both, and my immediate instinct was that these 2 could be just the ticket to sprucing up Intelligence and Wisdom.

A 'Flashback' is often used in movies (most often heist movies like the Ocean's series) where the narrative has shown you the protagonist is in a no-win situation and suddenly pulls a deus-ex-machina out of his pocket. While this is not good storytelling, the film will then use a flashback to give a good reason why the deus-ex-machina exists, giving a real-world explanation rather than 'plot armor'. In an rpg game, the character could burn a flashback point to rewrite history in a small way. "I know I don't have it on my character sheet and we didn't discuss it, but I do have some wolfsbane. I'm using a flashback point to go back to this morning when I was packing my gear and I because my character knew it would be useful he grabbed some wolfsbane and threw it in'.

It's meant to allow a character to retro-actively be more clever through demonstrating better planning.
It is the last sentence that had me. That is a good mechanic to actualize how a player character proves to be 'smart'. Maybe even something like a number of Flashbacks per long rest equal to the Intelligence bonus.

The character with Flashback thinks of an opportunity in the past that could have resolved the current problem. It is like a nonmagical Wish that is limited by what happened recently during the game sessions.

The outcome can make the character feel smart, like it saw the challenge coming all along.

It reminds me of the tv show Leverage. Where a current challenge is sometimes resolved by a flashback to a moment in the past when they put the plan into action unknown to the audience. The overall effect is, these are clever do-gooder con artists who were many steps ahead of the villains.


My only concern is there is some "fan base" resistance to giving players narrative control over the opponents in the encounter, unless 'a wizard did'.

But maybe if the narrative control via nonmagic Flashback is 'contained' within one tight mechanic, and if what a Flashback can do and cant do is clearly understood, maybe it would be enough for the, heh, malcontents to live with.
 

But maybe if the narrative control via nonmagic Flashback is 'contained' within one tight mechanic, and if what a Flashback can do and cant do is clearly understood, maybe it would be enough for the, heh, malcontents to live with.
Defining what a rule does rather than leaving it too wide for interpretation will always help with said rule acceptance, but IMO, you shouldn’t care about malcontents beyond those within your own group.

As far as my own malcontentement is concerned, I’d be more upset about ability score changing than introducing another subsystem; I’ll accept flashback/flashforward much sooner than having eight ability scores. Personally, I think ability scores are mostly fine the way they are (though I wish Intelligence was more useful for non-Wizards), and I think Dexterity is fine even compared to Strength and Constitution (though I also think ranged combat is too easy and overly generous, and that usually is uniquely Dex-dependent).

But in the end it doesn’t matter because you and I are not playing together, so your players are the only ones that matter
 

Defining what a rule does rather than leaving it too wide for interpretation will always help with said rule acceptance, but IMO, you shouldn’t care about malcontents beyond those within your own group.

As far as my own malcontentement is concerned, I’d be more upset about ability score changing than introducing another subsystem; I’ll accept flashback/flashforward much sooner than having eight ability scores. Personally, I think ability scores are mostly fine the way they are (though I wish Intelligence was more useful for non-Wizards), and I think Dexterity is fine even compared to Strength and Constitution (though I also think ranged combat is too easy and overly generous, and that usually is uniquely Dex-dependent).

But in the end it doesn’t matter because you and I are not playing together, so your players are the only ones that matter
What if Constitution exists, but isnt part of the ability array or point buy? For example, what if the species determined the Constitution value. So the Human is always Constitution 12, but the feats can improve it. The Fighter and Barbarian classes might grant a bonus to Constitution.

The idea is Constitution and Wisdom split off. Then the deep four are the main place character concept decisions happen.

Strength would gain the Fortitude save, but Constitution remains the source for hit points.
 

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