Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

We also know that GL chose droids for the Separatist army so that he could depict the heroic Jedi cutting through swathes of enemies with their lightsabers without having to depict them killing anyone.

But then the Clone Wars cartoon showed us Jedi and Clones cutting through swathes of Geonosians (sometimes with flame throwers even) ... I guess he was thinking of them as being like organic droids because they're just "drones" in an insectile hive mind structure?

Gotta love the (in)consistencies!

pukunui said:

There's definitely a lot of murky terrain around droids in Star Wars. We're continually reminded that droids are programmed, and yet we are also continually shown droids behaving in ways that would suggest they are sentient, free-thinking creatures. From the droid torture chamber in Jabba's dungeons to the droid bar on Plazir-15, we're shown droids behaving like sentient creatures rather than programmed ones.

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You are creating a distinction here that I don't believe is necessary. They are both programmed and sentient free-thinking creatures. They are both property and sentient free-thinking creatures. That's not ambiguity. That's a failure to recognize the possibility of categories that exist outside of current human experience. Right now our experience with sentience is limited to a sample size of one, so we are making the mistake of trying to treat everything sentient as human. That's a failure of empathy and a failure of imagination.

Voadam said:

A lot of the droids, starting with C-3PO and R2D2, seemed to me to be designed to be people...

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What do you mean by "people"? If you mean "human", then definitely not. They don't really seem to have human motivations or personalities.

in their personality and decision making and ability to operate on their own and have a sense of self and what could be considered a mind from outward appearances.

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Yes, they have a personality, and decision making, and the ability to operate somewhat independently, and they have a sense of self and yes definitely a mind (but then so does an ant so I'm not sure what having a mind means to you).

Then they get shunted into whatever tool/slave/servant roles.

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Shunted? C3-P0 doesn't seem to think himself shunted into his role as a protocol droid. Does seem like he's upset about having someone to work for or to do meaningful labor? That's like claiming your average 18 year old male is "shunted" into a sexual relationship with a pretty attentive female. Just because you don't want as a human being what C3-P0 wants doesn't mean C3-P0 is somehow tricked or oppressed. This is a big of failure of imagination and empathy as taking seriously the idea that if you create an intelligent robot it will want to fall in love with a human female and have a romantic relationship with them. That's not reason talking. There is no reason to think that a machine would want the same things as a semi-evolved simian nomad.

How much free will they actually have is a trickier question.

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Quite a bit apparently but it's no trickier of a question than asking how much free will we have. They certainly seem to be able to choose within the framework of their designed emotions and goals, but just like us they seem to have much less control over instinctual drives, needs and desires.

Celebrim said:

You are creating a distinction here that I don't believe is necessary. They are both programmed and sentient free-thinking creatures. They are both property and sentient free-thinking creatures. That's not ambiguity. That's a failure to recognize the possibility of categories that exist outside of current human experience. Right now our experience with sentience is limited to a sample size of one, so we are making the mistake of trying to treat everything sentient as human. That's a failure of empathy and a failure of imagination.

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On the other hand, accepting the idea of sentient, free-willed beings that are literally built to serve can lead to some dangerous failures of imagination. We see it in-universe during the prequel trilogy - a galaxy inured to having sentient servants in the form of droids collectively then has no problem accepting the creation of an actual slave race in the form of the clone army.

That's part of the danger of getting to the point of having sentient servants in the form of AI - it can twist a society's attitudes to free will in general. Our own society is not immune to that.

In the old legends Lando Calrissian trilogy, Lando acquires a weird starfish like droid sidekick. In the third book it turns out to be not a droid at all, but a juvenile of a machine race.

Paul Farquhar said:

In the old legends Lando Calrissian trilogy, Lando acquires acquired a weird starfish like droid sidekick. In the third book it turns out to be not a droid at all, but a juvenile of a machine race.

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Hmm. That reminds me of L3-37 from Solo. She's literally a self-made droid, and she's fighting the good fight for droid rights!

pukunui said:

Hmm. That reminds me of L3-37 from Solo. She's literally a self-made droid, and she's fighting the good fight for droid rights!

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I always took it that L3 was loosely inspired by Vuffi Rah.

This is interesting: Andor’s Tony Gilroy on how Kleya was actually in charge

pukunui said:

This is interesting: Andor’s Tony Gilroy on how Kleya was actually in charge

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Word of god is @Epic Meepo is right!

What was the name of the antagonist in KotOR2 again?