D&D (2024) Using general Feats when your ability is already 20

MuhVerisimilitude said:

Assuming the fighter hits for 6.5 on average and the barbarian hits for 14, the fighter is on average at about 50% of the damage dealt by the barbarian, not counting accuracy.

Taking accuracy into account we get roughly 0.55 * 6.5 = apprx 3.25 as average damage for the fighter and 0.88 * 14 = apprx. 13 (not going to bring out a calc for this). Looks like this barb is doing roughly 4 times as much damage per round.

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Flights of Fancy said:

No worries lol.

My point is now that this came up, you asked us here what RAI or RAW is on it. But if the players decided to roll, and (I'm guessing) have decided on other things, now the player knows they want CHA-based feats, so let the group decide instead of adhereing to RAW or RAI or asking us.

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ECMO3 said:

Yeah I don't generally do that in the middle of a campaign. We decide on homebrew we are using beforehand except when extreme issues make it necessary to flex.

I find this varies by group, but in some groups if you allow changes in-campaign it can go down a very bad path where they are just constantly asking for changes or variations and it is some PCs doing it and not others. As a DM I like to just put that stuff to bed in session 0.

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FrogReaver said:

The Fighter can use a vex weapon to help improve accuracy. Probably puts the comparison a bit closer to the 300% mark if not a bit under. Still agree with the main thrust of your point though.

I'm not as convinced on the survivability.

At level 2 (your using reckless) the Barbarian has 17+12 = 29hp. He can restore 6.5+5 x2 from hit dice = +26. Total hp of 55. In the best case we can essentially double that due to resistance. 110 Effective hp before enemy accuracy. An enemy with +4 to hit will hit 40% of the time, but they have advantage so that becomes 64% of the time and will crit twice as often. 110/64% = 172

The level 2 Fighter will have something like 21 AC (4 more than the Barbarian). The will have 12+8 = 20hp. Hit dice = +15. 2nd wind (assuming 2x short rest) = +30. Total hp = 65. Enemies with 4 attack have a 20% chance to hit the fighter. Fighter Effective hp 65/20% = 325

Don't get me wrong, i'd much prefer your Barbarian, but said Fighter is alot more defensive. Having 189% more effective hp compared to such a Barbarian. As long as the Fighter player can get enemies to attack him, he's being effective.

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MuhVerisimilitude said:

Want to add my disclaimer that I'm not the one who made the barb or fighter so I don't know if those numbers are correct or not, I just wanted to show that the 30% comment made by someone else above is wrong given the numbers in the post they're replying to.

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MuhVerisimilitude said:

Assuming the fighter hits for 6.5 on average and the barbarian hits for 14, the fighter is on average at about 50% of the damage dealt by the barbarian, not counting accuracy.

Taking accuracy into account we get roughly 0.55 * 6.5 = apprx 3.25 as average damage for the fighter and 0.88 * 14 = apprx. 13 (not going to bring out a calc for this). Looks like this barb is doing roughly 4 times as much damage per round.

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AlViking said:

Not sure why we're going from fighter to barbarian. I was thinking of two fighters using a longsword with the same build, assuming dueling feat for a +2 damage. A 14 strength fighter will do (4.5 +2 +2) for 8.5 damage per hit. A 20 strength fighter will do (4.5 + 2 + 5) for 11.5. So it rounds up to 30%. On the other hand I didn't do the math in my head to include chance to hit so against 15 AC that 14 strength character will have a 50% chance to hit doing 4.25. The 20 strength has a 65% chance to hit for 7.5 average damage, so around 75% more damage per attack. Still nowhere near 300% that you stated which is why I was confused.

Obviously if you change classes and weapon used there can be more of a difference, I just don't see how it's relevant to change the base. The 14 to 20 is still significant. In addition if the player with 14 strength wants to close the gap by increasing their strength they won't be able to take other useful feats. It will be a noticeable difference that only grows as levels increase.

Or maybe I just totally missed something.

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AlViking said:

Not sure why we're going from fighter to barbarian. I was thinking of two fighters using a longsword with the same build, assuming dueling feat for a +2 damage. A 14 strength fighter will do (4.5 +2 +2) for 8.5 damage per hit. A 20 strength fighter will do (4.5 + 2 + 5) for 11.5. So it rounds up to 30%. On the other hand I didn't do the math in my head to include chance to hit so against 15 AC that 14 strength character will have a 50% chance to hit doing 4.25. The 20 strength has a 65% chance to hit for 7.5 average damage, so around 75% more damage per attack. Still nowhere near 300% that you stated which is why I was confused.

Obviously if you change classes and weapon used there can be more of a difference, I just don't see how it's relevant to change the base. The 14 to 20 is still significant. In addition if the player with 14 strength wants to close the gap by increasing their strength they won't be able to take other useful feats. It will be a noticeable difference that only grows as levels increase.

Or maybe I just totally missed something.

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MuhVerisimilitude said:

I have no idea I'm just quoting your assertion where you said 30%. I am not defending anything or arguing anything only pointing out that the 30% estimate is wrong given the numbers in the post that you replied to.

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