D&D 5E (2024) [+] What does a non-spellcaster Psion need/look like?

Crimson Longinus said:

She's literally a witch that casts spells and has a magic book!

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you literally quoted me saying i'm only referencing AoU to IW

CreamCloud0 said:

you literally quoted me saying i'm only referencing AoU to IW

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Nevertheless, she's a witch. In any case, I think that you perceive her a s psion just shows how the distinction between mages and psions is arbitrary. The tropes in fiction are often mixed, and one character can have traits that could be described as either and depending on the beholder, often are. Same thing than what I said about the Stranger Things, really.

Crimson Longinus said:

Nevertheless, she's a witch. In any case, I think that you perceive her a s psion just shows how the distinction between mages and psions is arbitrary. The tropes in fiction are often mixed, and one character can have traits that could be described as either and depending on the beholder, often are. Same thing than what I said about the Stranger Things, really.

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the cross media significance of titles is meaningless, that she is called a witch means nothing for what class she would represent/be in DnD, she is a powered individual who specialises in mental manipulation and raw energy manipulation who's powers are directly correlated to her emotions, that's more than enough to land her squarely in the position of psion for me, that she uses a spellbook is completely irrelevant as i explicitly excluded the media that was pulled from where i stated where i was referencing her depiction, we could just intentionally ignore any and all differences and lump everything together like you say but i think that is the boring choice.

CreamCloud0 said:

the cross media significance of titles is meaningless, that she is called a witch means nothing for what class she would represent/be in DnD, she is a powered individual who specialises in mental manipulation and raw energy manipulation who's powers are directly correlated to her emotions, that's more than enough to land her squarely in the position of psion for me, that she uses a spellbook is completely irrelevant as i explicitly excluded the media that was pulled from where i stated where i was referencing her depiction, we could just intentionally ignore any and all differences and lump everything together like you say but i think that is the boring choice.

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I mean you literally exclude things about her that are part of the same continuity. That is just weird cherry picking, and that you have to do this shows how artificial the divide between a mage and a psion is.

Crimson Longinus said:

I mean you literally exclude things about her that are part of the same continuity. That is just weird cherry picking, and that you have to do this shows how artificial the divide between a mage and a psion is.

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why is it at all bad or wrong that i'm cherry picking? firstly i haven't seen the media she's depicted in outside of the ones i specified so i didn't want to unintentionally include factors that would influence my example, and secondly why am i obligated to take the entirety of a character across all of their continuity, like, the capabilities of tony's suits change massively across the MCU, why can't i point to his capabilities between say Iron Man 2 after he integrated the electricity absorption into his suit but before he gets the neural implants in 3 and say 'just reference his capabilities in this bit here'? must i also include his later nanotech because that's something he gets at somepoint too?

CreamCloud0 said:

why is it at all bad or wrong that i'm cherry picking? firstly i haven't seen the media she's depicted in outside of the ones i specified so i didn't want to unintentionally include factors that would influence my example, and secondly why am i obligated to take the entirety of a character across all of their continuity, like, the capabilities of tony's suits change massively across the MCU, why can't i point to his capabilities between say Iron Man 2 after he integrated the electricity absorption into his suit but before he gets the neural implants in 3 and say 'just reference his capabilities in this bit here'? must i also include his later nanotech because that's something he gets at somepoint too?

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I just find it absolutely hilarious that your example of "non-magical psion" is a character who is a literal spell casting witch that definitely does magic. And that the character can be perceived that way whilst evolving into even more blatantly magical direction without it feeling weird at all just shows how arbitrary the distinction is.

Like we can have classes that have different sort of mechanics in the game and I have suggested some. But my suggestion was literally based on the magic system of another game. So I just do not understand what people want with the psionics, as ultimately it is just another word for magic, and you choosing one of the most blatantly magical chracters as an example of a psion just reinforces this.

In all fairness, Marvel comics magic users bear very little in common with D&D magicians, often able to use their powers at will. In the case of Wand Maximoff in particular, in the comics she has both an innate ability to (presumably psionically) manipulate probability* and the ability to use magical spells.

*later expanded to full reality warping. Maybe. Marvel loves to retcon how her powers work.

As to her MCU version, contact with the Mind Stone gave her telekinetic and energy manipulation abilities before she gained the power of the Darkhold to wield magic.

So you can both use her as an example of a psionicist (Wilder) and an arcane caster**- I think we used to call that a Cerebremancer in 3.5?

**again, keeping in mind magic use is very different between systems. It would be like comparing Harry Potter to a D&D caster.

Hmm...while I'm perfectly content with a spell slot psion, I wonder if approaching this from another direction would be useful.

Spell slots are one way to do power scaling in 5e. The other existing ways are Extra Attack (sometimes in combo with Spellcasting) and Sneak Attack. If we focus on the system and yeet everything that uses spellcasting and see what fiction emerges we might get...

• Psionics As Attacks. In this model, we maybe focus on attack/defense modes as weapons. Ego whip, mind blast, etc., all get presented as things you can use with the Attack action to hit with. Power scaling comes by giving, basically, Extra Attack and Action Surge like a Fighter. Each of the attack modes is like a weapon - deals damage and has a mastery/cantrip effect on top.
• Psionics as Sneak Attack. In this model, we just deal extra dice of damage. It's possible the subclass defines the context and type of damage (ie: if I'm a telepath, maybe I deal extra psychic damage when I hit; if I'm a telekinetic, maybe I deal extra force damage and also do some forced movement/knock prone; if I'm a seer, maybe I deal extra psychic damage from a destiny dissonance, but it's more like 1/encounter than every round).
• Psionics as Rage. In this model, we rip from the Barbarian - we get juice from Extra Attack and from entering a psionic state that helps us deal more damage with our attacks. Our subclass also adds some extra damage. It's a bit more of hodge-podge of abilities, but the basic thing is that in the end, I'm dealing damage thanks to hitting with attacks while buffed in some way. The "rage" is really an opening of the mind, a third eye awakening, a shounen revelation, whatever. This is kind of a cool idea for a wilder.
• Psionics as Flurry of Blows. This works a lot like Psionics As Attacks, but the focus is on a bonus action to make many smaller attacks. You can still use the attack modes as "weapons." You still get Power Points, they're just roughly equivalent with a monk's Focus Points. Subclasses might focus on expending Power Points to do dope stuff.

In all cases, subclasses focus more on "utility" -- your telekinesis and your telepathy and your teleportation and your precognition and such are mostly defensive / social / exploration use. These can be balanced for at-will or nearly at-will (short rest recharge) capacity, since they're not exactly sources of the class's damage potential.

Of the potentials above, I am fond of the idea of treating psionic attack/defense modes as weapons, and so Psionics As Attacks or Psionics as Flurry of Blows are pretty attractive. I also like bringing the monk's design into the psion, since that reinforces the occasional idea of the monk being kindred, but not quite the same, as a psion. I think it could be a lot of fun using the monk as a template to make a psionicist.

Ultimately, the spell slots are probably the most evocative of the 2e/3e/4e psionicists, but I totally think there's room for "psionic weapons" (with defense modes being "psionic armor!") used by those proficient in them, and lots of room for psionic subclasses of different classes. The former could even give a very 1e "I'm a Fighter, but I can also Mind Blast!" kind of vibe.

They look a lot like Warlocks but with no spells and many more Invocations. Then there needs to be a Feat anyone can take that gets them one of those Invocations so they can also be Psionic as a side-hustle.

A psionic barbarian? It is possible, mainly if the barbarian is a maenad from 3.5 Ed. Once I asked grok and this suggested the soulbreaker, a psionic barbarian subclass.