Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

I don’t see DnD as telling a written story, but rather letting a story emerge from a given setup.

GobHag said:

All RPGs also have their own restrictions, what's wrong if the restriction is 'At the end, you will betray the person who trusts you the most' instead of something more concretely like 'there's a 50 feet high stone wall'? Is deciding at Session 0/CharGen/between sessions on how your character's arc would develop also be an expression of player agency?

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To expand on this: someone (I think it was Ron Edwards) once said that an RPG needs to have some things that are fixed, and some things that are uncertain. A situation in which nothing can change, or one in which there are no established truths, are both unplayable. The interesting question is: in this game, which things are fixed, and which ones are up for grabs?

As for games as stories: as someone who enjoys the story of a game as it happens in play, I think having motivated characters, rising action, and other things that people call the ingredients of a story is absolutely possible in play. I've played plenty of scenes in RPGs with interesting stakes, rising drama, and characters with interesting motivations. Now, if you don't enjoy those things in a game, or you've never seen it happen, that's fine, everyone has different experiences, but I'm here to attest that it's possible.

As for structure, I think it's a bit of a red herring. Is a doorstopper novel with a hundred loose threads not a story? Does Baldur's Gate 3 not have a story, just because I spend most of my time flirting with party members, fighting monsters, and looting treasure, and doing those things in any order I please?

Reynard said:

Where do you stand? What is your preference when it comes to TTRPG play and story?

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Our group plays a WIDE variety of games.

So for us Plot, Story, and Play to Find Out are not all talking about the same potato, but are all kind in bed together with that potato.

Plot is the purpose and driver of the game. Plot can be 'murder mystery' or 'WWE matchup', or 'kill the necromancer'. What is the plot of Star Wars? = there is an empire attacking rebels and the here is a rebel who fights back. It's not the Story, its just the Plot.

Story is the emergent tale of events that string together to form cohesion. It tells us how we resolved the Plot, and more importantly, it tells us what mattered and why. What is the Story of Star Wars? = it is a 'Coming of Age' story for Luke. We see him go from young naïve man, to hardened jedi knight in three acts. And by the end of Return of the Jedi, his story is told. Anything more would be a different Story.

Play to Find Out is a process. Its the vehicle that gets us from point A to point B. And it's not the only process you can use. But its a fine one, and maybe one of the more common ones. When using Play to Find Out, it means the players and GM have not determined some amount of their game.
....Which leads to...
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- For some people it may be utterly nothing. They start with character sheets with names and stats and nothing else, not even knowing much of the world they are in. They don't even know what the Plot may be, and they certainly have not set themselves on any particular Story path.

-For some people, it may be a little setup, and then see how the dominos fall. They pick characters and give them rich backgrounds and place then in the world as if they had already been in it for years. They might already be heroes or villains. They may know the Plot too, something like "we will overthrow the Prince". And then with everything staged, they Play to Find Out how that Story goes. Action by action they work towards a goal of "overthrow the Prince" and dice and rules and choices keep everyone guessing how it goes and how it ends.

- For some it has nothing to do with the characters at all. It is the "tales of world", which means the world its self is the Story and there never are Plots. Did you complete the dungeon of Undermountain? Did you clear all the monsters of Green Swamp? In this case the characters and plots are not really the point. The point is to see what the world offers and overcome/defeat it. The Story told is how many characters died to the Sphere of Annihilation trap, how many bugbears a character took out in a single hit. And yes, this aspects come up in other games, but for some people this is ALL the game is, this is the ONLY story.

And there are more... all fun, all different.

billd91 said:

But you do keep returning to the idea that the story isn't what's being done at the table now, it's what you see and talk about when it's all done. And we are saying that's not the full truth. If you're playing, story's emerging now and can be talked about now and directed based on the agendas of everyone at the table. The story doesn't have to be complete to be a story.

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I think it does, by definition.

RenleyRenfield said:

Plot is the purpose and driver of the game. Plot can be 'murder mystery' or 'WWE matchup', or 'kill the necromancer'. What is the plot of Star Wars? = there is an empire attacking rebels and the here is a rebel who fights back. It's not the Story, its just the Plot.

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That is not the meaning of "plot" when talking about story. Plot is the sequence of events that make up the story. What you are talking about is setup or inciting incident.

Krachek said:

I don’t see DnD as telling a written story, but rather letting a story emerge from a given setup.

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I'll go further and say I don't see very many RPGs that I'd care to play at all that don't operate that way. Maybe a little genre push for very specific games, likes supers genre, or something with a specific feel like Star Trek Adventures. But the vast majority of time? I have zero interest in any drive to make a "story" out of an RPG before or during play. Feels like a whole different kind of game to me.

gorice said:

To expand on this: someone (I think it was Ron Edwards) once said that an RPG needs to have some things that are fixed, and some things that are uncertain. A situation in which nothing can change, or one in which there are no established truths, are both unplayable. The interesting question is: in this game, which things are fixed, and which ones are up for grabs?

As for games as stories: as someone who enjoys the story of a game as it happens in play, I think having motivated characters, rising action, and other things that people call the ingredients of a story is absolutely possible in play. I've played plenty of scenes in RPGs with interesting stakes, rising drama, and characters with interesting motivations. Now, if you don't enjoy those things in a game, or you've never seen it happen, that's fine, everyone has different experiences, but I'm here to attest that it's possible.

As for structure, I think it's a bit of a red herring. Is a doorstopper novel with a hundred loose threads not a story? Does Baldur's Gate 3 not have a story, just because I spend most of my time flirting with party members, fighting monsters, and looting treasure, and doing those things in any order I please?

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This is an opinion thread, so to my mind it's not about whether inserting these narrative beats in play is possible, rather it's about if they are desired, and that of course is subjective.

I don't think anything can truly be determined or agreed upon, because every person will have a differing definition of what "Plot", "Story", and "Play to find out" means for them.

Case in point, some people in this thread have said a story is happening as the RPG is being played, others have said we only get the story after the play is done. Thus there cannot be agreement on Story as related to RPGs.

DEFCON 1 said:

I don't think anything can truly be determined or agreed upon, because every person will have a differing definition of what "Plot", "Story", and "Play to find out" means for them.

Case in point, some people in this thread have said a story is happening as the RPG is being played, others have said we only get the story after the play is done. Thus there cannot be agreement on Story as related to RPGs.

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That is why it is a discussion, not a committee to reach consensus.

Reynard said:

That is why it is a discussion, not a committee to reach consensus.

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True. But that also means no one or no thing is going to be correct or incorrect, nor right or wrong. Because most likely when someone reads something and thinks "That's not right"... it will be because their definition of the thing under discussion will be different that the person who made the statement.

DEFCON 1 said:

True. But that also means no one or no thing is going to be correct or incorrect, nor right or wrong. Because most likely when someone reads something and thinks "That's not right"... it will be because their definition of the thing under discussion will be different that the person who made the statement.

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Isn't that a major problem everywhere? For everything, especially lately?