D&D 5E (2024) DnD 5e designer [Mike Mearls] explains how INDIE RPGs are taking over

Ruin Explorer · Sunday at 3:19 PM

Piperken said:
When ppl online ask, "What are you playing or running this weekend?" I'm amazed by the variety of responses in games people are trying out for the first time or continuing to play.

In terms of vibes, this is what feels significantly different, compared to the time frame I mentioned before. Not the amount of activity, but that people are just playing a wider variety of games besides, or in addition to, D&D.

That kind of exposure is a positive development.

I would agree.

This feels increasingly distinct from the 1990s broadening out of the market. In the 1990s it really only broadened out into a number of other fairly large, product-heavy games for the most part. But now it seems like huge numbers of people who I thought of as the kind of people who would only play/think of D&D are playing all sorts of weird indie stuff, including things I haven't even heard of before sometimes. It seems like people are much more willing to try new RPGs - I think in part because generally they're so much easier to learn than they used to be, tending both towards rules-light and rules that make some immediate kind of sense.

Okland · Sunday at 3:41 PM

SlyFlourish said:
This is one of the reasons I'm nervous about the growth of D&D Beyond. We're already starting to see D&D Beyond exclusive products from both Wizards of the Coast and other publishers (including the 5e Cthulhu book by one Mr. Mike Mearls!). Kobold Press recently announced two books using D&D 2024 rules instead of Tales of the Valiant (Northlands Sagas and the new Creature Codex revamp), very likely so they can also release these books on D&D Beyond.

D&D Beyond is a honeypot for publishers – publish your material using D&D 2024 rules and you have a shot at publishing them on D&D Beyond. It's profitable enough that Kobold Press is publishing two of its books for their competitor's system instead of their own. Having talked to several publishers published on D&D Beyond, the money is simply too good to pass up.

And the platform is clearly built for lock-in. Monthly subscriptions are required for unlimited character building and product sharing. The license allows for no actual product ownership. If you buy your material there and your friends share it, you're a lot less likely to want to switch to another system, move to another platform, or stop paying your monthly fee.

I worry that lock-in makes it harder to switch to other systems. It could be a big investment for a group to get copies of Shadow of the Weird Wizard in everyone's hands if everyone already has access to everything they need to keep playing D&D 2024 on D&D Beyond.

I don't see WOTC engaging in a nefarious strategy to choke out the competition going on right now. I see WOTC eager to get a cut of every RPG product they can (just as they hoped to do with the OGL 1.1) and building a platform to draw in customers and business partners and keep them there. I see publishers who simply can't pass up the money they get if they publish on D&D Beyond. It's not an exclusive contract, so слот игри 777 feels safe. It was also safe to sell on Amazon until suddenly there wasn't anywhere else left you could reasonably sell stuff.

It’s wild to see heavy hitters like Kobold Press prioritizing the 2024 rules over their own system just to get a spot on the storefront. Even if Wizards isn't being "evil" about it, the ecosystem they're building makes it so easy to stay and so expensive to leave. Once a group has sunk hundreds of dollars into digital books and easy character builders, convincing them to learn a new system like Shadow of the Weird Wizard becomes a massive uphill battle. I really worry we're heading toward a future where "the platform" matters more than the actual game design.

Warpiglet-7 · Sunday at 4:12 PM

I don’t know where people find the time to play many different games.

I am lucky to play anything with work and kids!

We are not abandoning 2014 5e…still like it.

But for a harsher vibe going to play some shadowdark. Really have had fun with it.

What is interesting to me is that my kids see it an want to try it…and another player’s kid was way into it at a convention “loves it” and…it’s funny that the old is feeling new (with some real additions).

I think 5e was the gateway drug…RPGs are not such a foreign concept to a whole new group of players.

Funny…it’s like us trying top secret or marvel super heroes, gamma world or star frontiers all over again.

Clint_L · Sunday at 4:47 PM

Warpiglet-7 said:
I don’t know where people find the time to play many different games.

I am lucky to play anything with work and kids!

We are not abandoning 2014 5e…still like it.

But for a harsher vibe going to play some shadowdark. Really have had fun with it.

What is interesting to me is that my kids see it an want to try it…and another player’s kid was way into it at a convention “loves it” and…it’s funny that the old is feeling new (with some real additions).

I think 5e was the gateway drug…RPGs are not such a foreign concept to a whole new group of players.

Funny…it’s like us trying top secret or marvel super heroes, gamma world or star frontiers all over again.

This is the way. When you're young, you start with what's popular, then you get curious, start to develop your own taste, find your games and people, but you'll likely always have a soft spot for that first love, which for many of us was D&D. By the time I was 15 I was spending my McDonald's paycheque on gmes like Chill, Middle Earth Roleplaying, and Call of Cthulhu. College was Warhammer, Loremaster, and Shadowrun. Now I'm back to D&D as my main game precisely because of that nostalgia factor, and truthfully because DDB does make it very easy.

It's kind of like music - I push myself to listen to different stuff, but still come back to those early favourites regularly.

I bet most of us have had similar journey. D&D's success is generally good for the hobby, but it will always be the behemoth that other games have to work around.

Parmandur · Sunday at 6:02 PM

Okland said:
It’s wild to see heavy hitters like Kobold Press prioritizing the 2024 rules over their own system just to get a spot on the storefront.

By all accounts, it is very lucrative, and it is a business.

Mistwell · Sunday at 6:40 PM

Kichwas said:
I know people who swear by startplaying and people who think it's heresy.

But yeah there is no good data. We have our gut feelings for the most part.

We're all kind of in echo chambers though. I think the D&D folks think it is way more dominant than it actually is. And I think the non-D&D folks like myself think D&D has lost a lot more ground than it actually has.

I don't understand why people don't trust the IcV2 data, which they had trusted for 25 years. Is it just because they don't like the results?

Scribe · Sunday at 6:47 PM

Mistwell said:
I don't understand why people don't trust the IcV2 data, which they had trusted for 25 years. Is it just because they don't like the results?

I thought it was because reporting and distribution channels changed.

Mistwell · Sunday at 7:21 PM

Scribe said:
I thought it was because reporting and distribution channels changed.

For IcV2? No. It's still the same interview with a large array of retailers.

It's big box store reporting that changed, not game stores reporting to IcV2.

Incenjucar · Sunday at 7:35 PM

We're in a pleasantly experimental phase in RPG gaming (and other hobbies) where the barriers are pretty low thanks to digital options and the community hitting that critical mass size where you have too many sub-communities to really grasp it all. A good chunk of society has embraced that it's okay to play games, and any way you want to play is fine. Resources for building games are everywhere.

The monetization part is a harder nut to crack, but getting paid for art is easier now than it has ever been, even if it's still a struggle. Discoverability is of course a headache, but hobbyists are quite good at organizing data so if you have a strong enough hook and a good pitch there's a solid chance someone will notice and add it to a list.

I do think in the current climate there will continue to be struggles to get out from under D&D's shadow in what remains of the Western monoculture, but that's less sure as the generations flow and entry points change. It's safe to assume that most people learn about RPGs through other media first, like CRPGs, Twitch streams, and cartoons, and I those are heavily evolving spaces. Someone is going to have learned what LARPing is from a throwaway line in Digital Circus. As media continues to reference other media, we might see additional noticable shifts that weren't likely in decades past. I'm hoping we all get to see something break out in a way World of Darkness seemed to be doing in olden times.

Zardnaar · Sunday at 8:06 PM

Mistwell said:
I don't understand why people don't trust the IcV2 data, which they had trusted for 25 years. Is it just because they don't like the results?

Not liking the results/insult the source started around 20 years ago. Became noticeable in D&D spaces during 4E.

Whole collapse of ecosystem was fake news. Some people were genuinely shocked 5E was announced 2012.

Kinda started in 3E more a "hivemind" though. Real games were not like hivemind assumptions imho.

Even now say something like most games dont go to high level when talking about class balance gets pushback.

Even funnier when you ask people pushing that are they playing high level answer is usually no (if theyre even playing).

Mearls has mentioned it (then they attack Mearls).