Let's Talk About Levels or Tiers of Success

I like GURPS Margin of Success (or failure).

It's a very simply concept based upon simple arithmetic, but the system uses it to allow for a lot of different mechanics.

The basic idea:
•Roll dice, did you succeed?
•If yes, by how much?

This can then be compared to other things to enable more complexity as needed. For example, you can determine the accuracy of attack using rapid gunfire by comparing a weapon's "Rcl" (recoil) statistic to margin of success.

Example:
•I attack using a pistol that has a Rcl of 2.
•I have a pistol skill of 14.
•GURPS is a roll-under system...
•So, let's say that I fire three shots using my skill of 14, and I roll 3d6 with a result of 12.
•12 succeeds by being less than 14, so one shot hits. Then I see that I had margin of success that was less than 2 (Rcl,) so that means a second bullet hits.
•Had I rolled 10: 1 hit for success + 1 for being within 2 + 1 for being within 2 again = a total of 3 hits

I said hit above, but GURPS also uses active defenses -meaning that the target could try to dodge. The same mechanic works there too.

Example Defense:
•Let's assume a target with a dodge score of 12.
•The target is at risk of being hit with 3 bullets from the previous example.
•3d6 vs Dodge 12
•for Dodge, you dodge a number of bullets equal to 1+margin of success
•Roll of 12 means "success," but only enough to dodge 1 bullet. The other two still hit.
•Roll of 11 means success with a margin of success of 1, so two bullets dodged (1+1)
•Roll of 10 means success with a margin of success of 2, so all three bullets dodged (2+1)

The same idea also works with failure and can be used to measure results.

An easy example would be saving against a negative magical effect from a cursed treasure chest. Let's say being turned to stone.
•In D&D you would save by rolling a Constitution save, with most results being binary: poisoned or not poisoned... stone or not stone
•In GURPS, you would roll against HT, and do something similar to the bullets, guns, and dodging mentioned above. A weak curse might just be a basic HT roll. A stronger curse might give a penalty to your HT score (making it more difficult to roll under). Either of those might then give different steps of failure/success by stating things like "failure means the character is turned to stone in 5 rounds; for each point of margin of failure, it occurs on one less round." (Honestly, that's not how I would design it, but it's meant to be a simple example).


You can also do the same thing with opposed rolls. Instead of the curse above, let's say the party is facing the BBEG of the campaign.
•The BBEG casts a petrification spell.
•BBEG rolls 3d6 vs spell skill
•party members roll 3d6 vs ability score to save
•compare the margins to determine a range of results
•instead of binary save/failure, you can have a range of results from save (completely fine) to partial save (slowed instead of stone) to fail (stone) and a variety of things in between. Think of it kinda like D&D 4th Edition's disease/condition track, with steps along the track.

Edit: to touch up some grammar
 
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A few years ago, I was in a Enworld discussion about D&D 4E skill challenges and how I did them a lot differently than written in the D&D 4E rules.

While GURPS and D&D 4E are very different games, running them both influenced how I GMed the other. Margin of Success/Failure is a concept that influenced how I DMed D&D Skill Challenge to include "Tiers of Success."

Post in thread 'Bridging the cognitive gap between how the game rules work and what they tell us about the setting' D&D 4E - Bridging the cognitive gap between how the game rules work and what they tell us about the setting
 

How is it flexible for players - do they get to interpret the levels of success for the roll themselves?

No, I'm Renley on this. Multiple amorphous levels of success means the GM has too much ability to downgrade successful rolls into 'nearly, but not quite'.
That operates on the assumption of an adversarial relationship between the Players and the GM. Why make that assumption?
 

I'm old and crotchety, and am beginning to dislike even Criticals and Fumbles. Success and Failure are really the only two I need anymore because 90% of the time that's really what it boils down to in the end.
 

How is it flexible for players - do they get to interpret the levels of success for the roll themselves?
In our games, in concert with the GM, yes. Along with failures (and the why of failures).

No, I'm Renley on this. Multiple amorphous levels of success means the GM has too much ability to downgrade successful rolls into 'nearly, but not quite'.
"Nearly, but not quite," is a test with an MoF of 1. :)

More seriously, if the GM is taking success away from the players when they explicitly have rolled a success (however the system being used defines it), then I submit that's not an issue with the system but an issue with the GM.

Something like PbtA (or how Legends in the Mist interprets it) may have a dirty success or a success with complications or a marginal success ... but they all have that success in them. To deny the PC the success is either a misunderstanding of the rules or 'willfully' antagonistic.
 

Yuo
In our games, in concert with the GM, yes. Along with failures (and the why of failures).


"Nearly, but not quite," is a test with an MoF of 1. :)

More seriously, if the GM is taking success away from the players when they explicitly have rolled a success (however the system being used defines it), then I submit that's not an issue with the system but an issue with the GM.

Something like PbtA (or how Legends in the Mist interprets it) may have a dirty success or a success with complications or a marginal success ... but they all have that success in them. To deny the PC the success is either a misunderstanding of the rules or 'willfully' antagonistic.
Yup, the partial success in PbtA play very specifically gives the player what they were trying to accomplish but at the cost of something else going poorly. I think that's a much better design paradigm than anything that reduces success to 'not quite'. Success moves things forward, as does the additional complication - its win-win.
 



So @Reynard, I'll stop before I go too much further and just ask: Do you want this thread to be (+ Fail Forward) to focus on just Tiers, does it make more sense to have a separate thread on Fail Forward, or did you intend for this discussion to cover both?
I want the discussion to go wherever it goes. I am interested in how folks feel about tiers of success and that will certainly include "yes an" and failing forward and all the various iterations of a non-binary result system.
 

Anyway, what I would like to talk about in this thread is levels or tiers of success in RPGs: what games you like or don't like that use multiple levels of success; the kind of implementation that you think works, or doesn't, and produces fun, or not, results; how multiple levels or tiers of success interact with different modes of play, such as exploration versus combat; that sort of thing.
What doesn't produce fun: the dice say you rolled a "success," but then other rules swoop in to say, "no, you failed."
 

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