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You know, I'd love to be able to try new system but everybody I've ever played RPG with was always super resistant to learning game system from independant publisher and a lot of them just outright considered it a chore and would only do it on rare occasions.

I don't trust this philosophy to not result into a ton of options becoming traps and failing to synergize, resulting in tons of characters who try to do too much at once because the individual ability sounded cool only to result in somebody who isn't good at anything. The lead up to Tasha's was...

I think it was like a class feature of a Beguiler? One of the Essential subclass. It's just there so you don't have to negotiate with your DM. Or turn out to be a Monk.

Heh, you're probably right. It's a type of Internet Guy I guess.

'Arcane Utterance', the level 2 Arcana Skill Power lets you 'cite an obscure fact to confuse, impress or scare a foe' letting you replace a Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate roll with Aracana! It's actually a better version of Suggestion, but I think Suggestion is like a level 1 class feature of...

So... game designers are not allowed to be experimental? You're using a single power from the tail end of the edition and claiming it's why people bailed on the game. There's plenty of other momentwhere doing an Arcana check dictates the power of whatever effect you're using, there's nothing...

My thought exactly.

I played a Warforged Star Pact Warlock. I just dumped CHA and focused on CON (Because Warforged) for my attack powers. It was a little limiting but I played up the madness of the character and it was a fun time anyway. And one of my Cleric as STR/CHA... So, limiting but the challenge was part of...

How would you have done Suggestion? What would you have preferred it to be like? An attack against Will?

Well the people we were talking about were newbies so I don't think they were used to anything. I dunno if I would call it a failure, maybe more a weakness... there's plenty of heavy board game out there that are just not for everyone. I feel like DnD's always kinda been like that a little and...

Here's another exemple of Arcana being used in place of another skill, the Knock ritual: Make an Arcana check with a +5 bonus in place of a Thievery check to open each lock or closure. (See the Thievery skill description, page 189, for example DCs.) To undo bolts or bars you normally couldn’t...

The point is that those improvised spells are NOT reliable and are weak effect. It shouldn't be stronger than 1st or 2nd level powers because those are the formal reliable powers.

It's used here because it's a skill and you were using a skill. It's a simplified buff: Instead of having you gain a specific +X to your Diplomacy roll, they cut to the chase and have you roll Arcana directly. If you buff your Arcana Skill, this spell become stronger without needing to be...

If they didn't want to put in the minimal effort demanded by a complex system like 4e, it probably wasn't for them as they clearly didn't care for tactical combat. And that's perfectly fine. As for what else they could have played I don't recall what all was available in 2008 so I don't know. It...

Obviously not all Wizard Players are like that... let's call them 'Die hard Wizard Fans' then? People who's favorite class is the Wizard BECAUSE of the dramatic alteration you can do. I find these types of people very vocal and opinionated. They want that specific fantasy and they want MORE of...

4e Skills are not as rigid as 3e ones that's all. Arcana is also the knowledge of energies and planar stuff and there's even powers related to skill training you can take. Heck, there's an Arcana Skill Power that's essentially superior to Suggestion! Arcane Muttering can let you replace Bluff...

No. In 4e, the offensive character is ALWAYS the one rolling the dice. If you want to hit a group you can target any of their defences: Armour Class, Fortitude, Reflex or Will. Saving throws in 4e are a timing mechanic. Effects have a duration of 'save end' where you roll a d20 at the end of...

You're using a magic spell to affect the disposition of a person towards you and make them agreeable to what you are saying? It's what Suggestion does except now it can't overtake a character who specializes in Diplomacy because it follows the same guidelines. You're making yourself sound more...

Okay I get it now. What specifically do you feel is missing exactly? With all due respect, these people should not have been playing DnD. I wouldn't invite them to play Hero Quest...

Sorry but I still don't understand how that links to what we were talking about how the rules feel too gamist and how I said they do because they're presented clearly and don't pretend to not be game rules. I'm not sure how that relates to the spells that weren't turned into rituals? We were...