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We play them if we feel it is interesting. We dont play defecating, cutting our fingernails, eating every meal, picking noses, every time they sleep. heck we have rules that allow players to cut scene so they can do something interesting if the current event has played out and is boring...

For my group it makes the overall game better and roleplaying more interesting. Just like hand waving unimportant events (like laborious irrelevant travel), training, buying supplies (for people who dont enjoy it). Lets players decide to have events focus on what their characters like, it...

This is the disconnect and where everyone is disagreeing with you. While sitting down and playing the game involves acting in character (character immersion) and roleplaying, for everyone else in the thread who has spoken up (i believe this is true..could be wrong) it also involves numerous...

bert1000 very concise and perfect point, this is probably the ideal point. RPGs and roleplaying are not the same; RPGs involve roleplaying but also other stuff.

I am now understanding what you are saying. I just think you are wrong. Which as I mentioned probably puts us at an impasse.

I feel we at an impasse as the world doesnt exist. It is just a product of the GMs narrative control. In a normal D&D game, it burns down because the GM wants it to or doesnt it want it to. It might be based on some concept of the world or it might be based on the fact that it burning down is...

How and Why Sorry if I sound frustrated, I am really trying to understand your perspective.

So according to you is the GM not playing a roleplaying game. He is doing many narrativist activities. He is doing a lot of things that are not immersing himself into a character. I have to admit I find your thoughts on roleplaying so alien that it is taking me awhile to try and see things...

I again actually disagree with most of what you just said. First off the World is actually the result of the "official" rules of the system, GM authority and player authority. By itself it does not exist. It cannot react, it cannot do anything. It is just a shared imagination space. For all...

This is my point. Characters are not real. They cannot make decisions. Players make decisions.

This is the part I am apparently not conveying well. These games all have very strong and codified rules that delineate who gets narrative control. Their rules are actually more codified and rigid than "traditional" games. They have very fiddly rules, feats, powers, spells etc. that all impact...

Option 2 actually doesnt really exist. I don't know of one game that says what the rate of fire spreading is, how much fuel is required for the building to burn down vs getting scorched a little, how much fire is required, what is the chance that the building will actually go up in flames...

You pretty much have only three sources of authority (i think maybe i am wrong) The rules, the GM or the players.

We are really far apart in what we in enjoy in an RPG. I actually think the worst advice given in many RPG books is the idea that immersion is the ulitmate achievement in an RPG (some more infer than say this). I think rules that encourage story and meta-gaming can (not always depends on the...

I take it you don't like game rules that both support and encourage meta-gaming (which is a misnomer...but rules that exist outside of the "world space")

I brought this in from another thread you responded to. This is I think great advice for resolving most challenges (and ties in with the entire resolution idea) . We have a term in our group called Zilch-play (someone else might have made it up and we stole it). Zilch-play is when basically...

I completely agree. I think the different techniques can work well together. The tricky parts for a formalized rule system (vs individual groups using a homebrew system) is delineating when to use different methods and the scope of narrative control. I personally like stake setting vs post...

Because Pawsplay doesnt mind :cool: I very much disagree. Many games like BW, Sorcerer, TSoY all have in depth rules that allow for narrative control. They are very much games and in some cases very gamist, they are just not detailed at the level of task resolution. Many people (myself...

You did say that about colors and I completely missed it on reading, though I guess from the example it seemed more like they can be used at different times (chronologically mixed) than in the same resolution. But you definitely said it and i just completely missed it. So my apologies. You...

Good example and it can be even more ambiguous.. Are you rolling to detect the demon shark (the GM said that there are Demon Sharks in the water)... or are you rolling so you can dictate "there are demon sharks in the water" and now adding an element to the scene (even more narrative...