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Yeah, I mean look at how much yoga and tai chi they probably do...

Really depends on level and spell selection, as well as who else is in the party. Spells like Animate Objects and Wall of Force are fantastic damage/control spells that are unaffected by legendary resistance. Wall of Force is perhaps not especially useful in a literal solo fight, but if there...

But... that's precisely why we need an integrated analysis?

I'd say more like 10, if it's meant to be a "boss fight". It depends somewhat on what else happened before that in the adventuring day, but as a solo encounter, I typically think 2x the "Deadly" threshold is appropriate.

That's fine! Nobody can say that someone's experience isn't their experience, and clearly there are people who have an enjoyable experience playing monks! Saying that they are low power doesn't undermine that. But we ought to be able to have both! If it is true that monks are underpowered, then...

It's a stronger claim than that, though. The claim is that, taking all aspects of what characters do put together (damage, not draining healing resources, tanking, buffing, debuffing, control, out-of-combat utility), the total monk package is in a class by itself at the bottom of the heap...

You anticipated my objection to this tack, so let's skip ahead... Forcing multiple LRs on the monk's turn is unlikely in most cases, especially against legendary creatures. You might, if you're lucky and also use a ki to flurry, get two hits, which means that forcing multiple LRs means they...

I guess it probably depends on their CON save modifier compared to their AC and HP... My gut has two reactions: (1) Could be, but IME solo enemies usually aren't very interesting or challenging, and (2) The sorts of enemies where stun is super effective tend to also be the sort of enemies where...

I agree. But both of those statements apply to the monk. I'd be perfectly happy if we dropped the word 'suck' entirely from this thread. It's clearly riling people up in ways that are orthogonal to the purpose of the original video that kicked this off. I've clarified that all I've ever meant...

But it would only be powercreep for the game as a whole if it were incorrect that the class as is is underpowered. If an underpowered class is buffed to be more in line with other classes, it's not hurting anybody who doesn't want to play monk, it just makes playing monk a more mechanically...

Yeah, this works. It's the dumb wording wherein "attack with a melee weapon" means something different than a "melee weapon attack".

All I'm saying is that your position seems to boil down to "I don't care if the monk falls short mechanically", and that I support your right to hold that position. But I don't really think it's adding anything to the conversation to say that over and over.

That sounds like a solid 2 position. Which is fine. But you don't need to take part in a conversation about how the quantifiables shake out. Nobody here is telling you the unquantifiables don't matter.

They're not buzzwords; they have specific meanings. And as I've said I don't mind people thinking of a new parameter, and enhancing an analysis. What I have a problem with, as far as "moving the goalposts", is when people stake out a position, are faced with data that contradicts their position...

I think that'd be really interesting to see. One worry is that there's likely a correlation between player skill and playing certain classes, so this sort of "in vivo" analysis would likely suffer from whatever biases toward certain classes are held by more skilled players. But it'd still be...

It's interesting, though... when people criticize a class's power level, it tends to be perceived as shitting on the fun of people who want to play that class. But it's actually the opposite --- pointing out that a class is underpowered is speaking on behalf of people who like playing it...

I agree it can be interesting, but it doesn't say too much one way or another about quantitative estimates. Monte Carlo simulations more generally would be an improvement over calculations on a spreadsheet --- for me, the gold standard would be to write down a standardized set of encounters that...

Champion is one of the worst fighter subclasses, and sword and board isn't particularly well suited to the features they get (or damage, generally, due to lack of feat support). And indeed by a quick back-of-the-envelope estimate, they fall behind the monk for at least a few levels in late tier...

Alas, the double scimitar has the "special" property and so can't be used as a kensei weapon.

20% per hit seems quite low. I guess it's not far off the success rate in Critical Role, but I'm not sure that's the best point of comparison, to be honest, since a party of 7 is likely to be facing higher CR monsters for their level than a party of a more typical size. But whatever the rate...