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"when my Pally stood up to an overwhelming force the rest of my party happily backed me up. Of course by neither attacking the bandits, nor backing down, I was attempting to save both my level 1 party (from being killed by the bandits) and the peasants (from having all their rice taken, leading...

Actually, when I google martyr, the definition is simply someone who is killed for their religious beliefs. My bet is there are as many implied meanings for martyr as you have Faith's and beliefs and causes. Part of the frustration of some of these positions which shift away from the context...

Yes and this is sometimes aided and abetted by a GM or social contract that says "you cannot just tell Bob's PC to go away." which puts the party de-facto hostage to that player's choice. In a campaign where some of the recent "what it takes to be a paladin" were in- play, I cannot see hardly...

I would recommend ritual caster to get find familiar and other rituals as you go along. Unseen servant as ritual is strong. A second option would be magic initiate for the same reason. Friends cantrip is good for short interrogations - boosting your charisma checks - to gain info when you dont...

This is the part of the position you seem to be taking that baffles me. "This seems to be how the paladin in the OP scenario came under a duty to the NPC." You have this somewhat solid defined( and extremeist yo me) view of some obligation to the NPC thatbincludes offering up your life for...

I see a lot of double dipping in there - where upticking spell slots already boost those spells and you now add additional bonuses for whst seems to be no cost? I would ask for clarification... If I want hold person or to target 3 targets that is a level 4 spell slot used currently. Under...

"So I would like to draw line. In the game I think the metagame knowledge made the Paladin's act justifiable. It is a game afterall. In real life, I think further attempts would have needed made since metagame knowledge couldn't make you believe this is the best outcome I can get." I would only...

Nope. But it shows a lot that that is what you took away from it. So, thanks.

Yes, that us why I explained the example given in the product with " One of the examples...", the reasoning they gave and suggested the fail on 1 could be within the scope of the Avernus bad stuff - not listing it as an example from the product. Of course, I suppose one could assume they meant...

Brust workd in Eberrron? Oh hell yeah.

Regarding offering himself up... While we do not know the full details, we know there was negotiayption, a strong result and that got the in game fiction to the offer made. Given that, taking that as known to character, knowing g itvtook work and success to get to this, as a character I would...

"Everybody can see the category error that would ve involved in the "rocks fall" version of the scenario. I'm saying that the you have no way out scenario has exactly the same structure." Actually, no. I am saying that in terms of the in-game fiction, no "but the gm" at all, the action chosen...

Absolutely. One of the things I try to present in the pre-game discussion and in-play are the roles of the Ffaith's, and specifically any faiths of PCs. They are not " islands" and for better worse come with ties that cut both ways. I make no bones about it, if you want more free-wheeling PCs...

Later the original,poster did add there was a "strong result" to a negotiation to get to the offer.

This is very true for 5e general. However in the product of this thread they fo suggest additional rules andvrulings to emphasize the hostile nature of this place and the pervasive infernal influences - to spotlight the environmental impacts. One of the examples hits not just flavor but...

See, here I dont know what you are arguing. The player and the paladin in question was not dealing with some other case under some other gm... they were dealing with that scene at that table with that gm. It seems like that player saw those events as conclusive, saw it as do or die. In 5e, in...

Tried to run - failed - was caught and cornered. Tried to talk out of it - got strong result - this was it. Player expressed after it was done to not die and be able to continue world saving quest. It seems pretty clear that if there is dome new way around this it's not present at the table...

"Handing over the NPC is knowing and willing. Coerced acts are nevertheless willed acts (contrast automatism, or in the context of D&D magical compulsion)." Wanting to understand this a bit, along with the comment about it not being suicide in this case to be killed by a dragon. In this case...

Following up on this, within the context of setting the hurdle for the paladin, really this boils over much beyond that. To quote a player from one of my many HERO games "I want points for that other PC disads, because every time it "hits him" it screws me!!" The more the GM makes the paladin...

Here we agree. Having gone through systems where you define your personality and tie it to "points" I keep coming back to how the best roleplaying, most evocative, most reactive and resilient- always came out in games where the "who" was not tied to points. Did not matter whether it was...