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Uhm..RC...not that I disagree about your last line...if the final probability of death is the same, the actual number of events that lead there are in so far irrelevant as long as the character doesn't get the chance to act as well...you'll be hard-pressed to find a monster that has a 50% chance...

Sorry, apparently we ARE talking about different games. :confused: Doesn't have much use discussing it with you, then. Happy gaming.

Well, it's definitely interesting to see that some people actually equate Sleep (and probably Hold Person and similar spells) with save-or-die effects. I guess in that context, we'd have to eliminate save-or-be-helpless spells as well. At some point, the "magic is SOOO overpowered" complaints...

Okay, see, I agree with a most of your reasonings you put up here...and incidentally, you put forth a good example of what I'd like the 4E "preview books" to be like. ;) Standard action...check. Wasn't 100% sure about the full-round attack myself, since it would have precluded movement, and...

Nope, it's a long-winded, and admittantly equally snarky, way of saying "No, and I shouldn't need to provide such a quote, seeing we're talking D&D." I apologize for the snark...eye for an eye went out of fashio 2000 years ago, after all. I'm not apologizing for the assumption that somebody who...

Uhm...just before the C&C squad comes crashing in here full throttle...C&C is actually not THAT much different from D&D, especially the older editions. It's an OGL game that changed some things from 3E and went back to some concepts from older editions (different XP charts, more saves, etc.) So...

The Lone Wolf RPG (same publisher) has a similar concept. Caster classes get a magical BAB (best progression) to use on their damaging effects, and a level-denedent base damage they cause with them. All other classes that try to use an item-based magical attack have to use half their class level...

Funny...lets ask this again, only differently. Assuming generally good play on the part of the players, and no major mistakes or acts of stupidity, how often do you think that that a player should have to actually make the roll and have his character either save, or suffer a dragon's breath...

Sheesh, leave the thread for a day and suddenly there's so much stuff to comment on...you people make thread abstinency really hard. ;) Actually, a spell like you describe wouldn't give a sense of the absolute power of the caster against the characters at all. It's more akin to the 9th level...

Enter one 1st level spell Cantrip, duration 1 hour/level, allows you to use all the cantrips in your spellbook for as long as it's running. :)

I'd say yes. Nothing like having one character who you can continuously tempt in difficult situations with whispers of "Take control! Just use that Charm Person and make him your friend, and he'll cave in on your demands." (for devils) or "Destroy them all if they don't bow to your wishes. And...

You know guys, discussions like this will end up in a "it's great" vs. "it's crap" line of arguments sooner or later anyway, this one is a good example of it. People ask for examples from other media where a main character is simply dropped by something like a death effect, because to them D&D...

Since I was referencing your specific post...yeah, that is your personal negative connotation I was talking about. ;) I'll readily agree that there are plenty who also don't like save-or-die, for various reasons, and that the connotation of "meaningless" and "random" pops up in other posts as...

Sorry, got to disagree here, simply because that negative connotation you give save-or-die effects is entirely yours. Basically, they are a tool, a mechanical way for the DM to represent those effects like the Avara Kedavra curse (or similar things, like a basilisk's gaze), and the fact that...

Of course I can't speak for the rest of the "save or die camp" :lol: but from what I read here, you don't really understand my point of view on save or die effects, which is pretty much demonstrated by those "replacements" you are suggesting. All of those are already in existence in one form or...

Hmmm, got to say, that sounds a lot better than "preview book". And I don't know about others, but around here "Making Of..." specials for movies are usually aired on TV around or slightly before the movie hits the theaters, in order to increase the customer curiosity. ;) Also, it might allow...

I voted "Would play but would probably create my own". Coming from Basic D&D, an RPG without a skill system is nothing new, and nothing to get really upset about, but I can remember that all of us back then enjoyed it when the Proficiency system was introduced in GAZ1. I like the general...

That isn't a justification for save-or-die effects, that's one way how you can handle them to ensure the characters have more than one saving throw standing between them and a quick death. It offers more information about the monster to the DM, and at the same time gives the "knowledge"...

Damn, I'm a crowd? :confused: Now that's a surefire way to make me stop garfing down those M&Ms and pretzels! :lol: (Kidding, obviously...it'll take a lot more to make me stop THAT. :heh: ) Agreed. If we're dealing with something with a reasonable intelligence, and the means to do some...

And while the rest of the thread happily veers off into arguing about details, I'd like to recommend one of Paizo's GameMastery adventures to the original poster. Take a look at W1 - Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale if you want to see how a transitional adventure that takes a group of 6th level...