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Really? Mastery of the game is really what it's about for you? Why do you play RPGs? There are much better game categories for honing your game-playing skills.

I don't agree. I have enjoyed many films and novels even though I didn't really think utter defeat was something the writer even considered for the ending. Utter defeat is very rare in fiction, and when it occurs the expectation is usually set up well in advance. (In the RPG arena, this happens...

No, I'm saying there's probably some sort of middle ground. Which I think is what Korgoth was saying as well. . . . I agree with the OP. I think we all come to the table with characters that reflect something we want to experience, whether gritty or glorious. The more the GM delivers that...

Amazing. All this time what I've been calling plot you've been calling sandbox. So here's a question for you: In my experience, once you present that crime at the church, the players always, always take the bait. After all, they came to the game table for adventure; I've offered them adventure...

So, in Approach 1 only the best of the best ever get to succeed at a roleplaying game, and even then when they're only on their game. Success in roleplaying is only for the true elite, and only on a good day. The rest of us losers are stuck with Approach 2, I guess.

This, I think, is the fundamental basis of the plot = railroad fallacy. If the GM is attempting to write a novel with the players as stand-ins for his own characters, then yes, "wrong" things are inevitable and railroading will be his recourse. Of course, this is a bad GM, and if he's not...

Just to clarify, you don't have to be a DDI subscriber to use the WotC community. The wiki there is free and accessible to anyone.

Yeah, that was fun. Back in 1979. When I was like, 14. For about three weeks. Frankly, a good game of Descent sounds like a more engaging RPG than what you're describing. Don't get me wrong, I like a good game of Descent. Or the occasional dungeon delve that just pits a page full of stats...

Brainstorm, I'm so with you. Can't wait to see what ideas this thread produces!

I hate the assumed connection between plot and railroading. Bad GMing is bad GMing; any campaign model can be screwed up by an incompetent GM. We can talk about giving the players treasure without an assumed connection to Monty Haul style gaming. Everyone accepts that if a GM gives out...

I totally agree with this. Don't get me wrong: Brush, brambles, and low trees that provide concealment and/or difficult terrain are fine, but they aren't really the defining element of a forest.

To be clear, I'm not talking about using them in a tactical sense. More like "Okay, Gaspard and Madeleine are talking to the Count's seneschal" [put three minis in the centre of the table] "The rest of you are still at the Pike and Boar." [put the rest of the PC minis off to the side.] Social...

This. Interpreting rules, or simply being comfortable with vagueness and on-the-fly interpretation, is an "advanced" gaming skill. Following rules--even complex rules--is more of a basic gaming skill. Walk before you run.

Yeah, I think a similar topic came up on UK Roleplayers maybe a year ago. . .

It seems to me that the assumption of miniatures use has always been part of D&D (see Jack Daniel's excellent post above), but, as D&D minis became a core part of the official product line in the early years of 3E, the assumption became increasingly codified within the rules. As for my own...

I've played a fair amount with players new to RPGs, players who hadn't played in a decade or two, and (that rarest of gamer) players who had played RPGs in the past, but never D&D. All of them seemed to grasp 4E with little difficulty. Those who were joining our regular gaming group are still in...

New quarter. New report. New round of EN Worlders trying to make it mean something for D&D.

I've been a heavy user of power cards, but as my character(s) go up in level and the number of cards increases, I'm thinking of going with the power-cards-printed-on-a-sheet-in-a-wet-erasable-sleeve solution, just to keep the game table under control. That said, though, that's really just an...

Oooh, yes! For a SF setting, try FFG's Doom board game. Maybe you can buy a secondhand or damaged copy cheap, since you're just after the components and not a complete game. Tons of interlocking tiles on board game stock. Great artwork. Descent is great for the fantasy version.

So to bring all of these useful comments back to the OP's point, it may be fair to say that 4E has pushed some of its complexity into the realm of tactile components. Certainly that's the case with power cards: I think most of us find playing 4E from an old-fashioned character sheet more...