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That's a really good point. I should really make that clearer. Probably just move them both into the Combat Superiority class feature so that they can have special rules.

While I can see why you would consider this overpowered, if the attack is given to any other class it is not. So yes, optimally it can be way more damaging, but it also let's the rogue player feel super awesome for being special. Honestly I think this only adds good things at my table. Yeah...

Yes those are both good points. I only intended Riposte to be used with Power Attack and Precision attack anyway, so that's a wash there. As for Sweeping Attack, reactions are just actions that are triggered, they can happen at any time, even on your turn. SRD Link

So to start this out I want to get everyone on the same page as me so that we can have a fruitful discussion. While commenting in the "Would this fix Champion?" thread. I came to a productive discussion with Tony Vargas about how to solve my issues with the Battle Master. While I know many...

I think you hit the nail on the head. The only issue then would be which version is the real Fighter? People would get hung up that one side of the edition wars has won. I personally would be happy with two classes as I've always hated the Fighter/Fighting Man name.

Personally. I think this thread has really shown that there are a few issues that are being conflated as one. There are people that do not like the gameplay of the Battle Master due to verisimilitude issues and resource usage and wish that the Champion had more to do round per round in...

Just a heads up, I didn't start this thread. I have just had similar feelings about the Champion's power level and wished that we could do this constructively for once. Usually these threads turn into a shouting match or are completely derailed. Edit: BTW I agree completely with what you...

Do you have a copy of it online? I'd like to check it out.

Any excess damage or bad situations would apply the same to both the Champion and the Battle Master. In fact the Battle Master, due to the nature of choosing when to use the maneuvers, is actually better off to handle those situations than the Champion. If I am incorrect please show me...

The issue with many previous comparisons is that they use all sorts of ancillary systems to judge the power of the subclasses. When comparing damage form extra critical hits with damage from Superiority Dice, you shouldn't add in races, feats, and multiclassing. There is no way to know if the...

I don't mean to be crude, but in this context it reads as "We need to make sure to crap all over the threads of people who have these opinions. We can't let them have their own opinions. Ours are better!"

It is a fact, previously proven by math in this thread, that the Champion does less white room damage than the Battle Master. It is my opinion that this needs to be changed for my game and group. As far as I can tell, your opinion is that it doesn't matter to you and you are fine with things...

You are definitely correct, but I guess I just dislike it for the same reasons I disliked the 4E PH1 Fighter. Don't give me spells as a Fighter. (please read as special abilities that can only be used by using a resource that you are unable to use otherwise) (side note: Action Surge and...

I honestly do not think that WotC even cares about forum communication for input anymore. They even got rid of their own. I think they realize that it a hobby forum has a self selection bias and any communication made on it will not be representative of the actual desires of your playerbase...

I can see that, but my issue was that, for the Battle Master, you can't use the abilities of the maneuvers without spending the Superiority Dice resource. This was the case with the Player's Handbook 4E Fighter as well (except for at wills). If Superiority dice were like the 4E Essentials Power...

I apologize. I was definitely exaggerating. While not incompetent they do lag behind the Battle Master.

The math on this would look like: Level 3 Champion: 5% additional chance to crit * 4d6 weapon damage (This is even worse for dual wielding and one handing) 0.05(4*6+4/2) = 0.7 damage per hit. 25-26 Attacks or 12-13 Attacks with Advantage Level 20 Champion: 10% additional chance to crit *...

Well you can make it not be incompetent at its only job. However, I also understand that there is a portion of the playerbase that want it to do more on a round per round basis. Maybe Satyrn is right that we need to look at creating an additional subclass to fill that niche instead of reworking...

Thanks. That's a great idea. To be honest, the Champion felt closest to the niche I wanted so that's why I began there as a starting point. However, I wouldn't want to step on the toes of players that like everything the way it currently plays.

It is recommended for 6-8 encounters per day with at least 2 short rests. That is supposed to be the balancing point for resources in 5E. The Battle Master needs to basically never get a short rest to ever give the Champion a chance to catch up to it in damage alone.