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There isn't a metasetting. There are bits of sometimes contradictory flavor thrown in to fire your imagination. The idea that it is binding in any way on anyone's campaign is abhorrent to me. Seeing this flavor referred to as RAW is a travesty. Well, maybe I don't feel that strongly, but seeing...

So you wouldn't use whatever stats they would present anyway, but you want to make him useless for 99%* of the players out there? I... I... I just said something to my screen that Eric's gramma wouldn't approve. * granted, I made this number up. It's probably closer to 98.66%

Let it fall.

If it's the climax of such a campaign, with those specific circumstances, it seems like your DM might have fun spending an hour advancing the final boss to customize him to the challenge of the players. Also, when you factor in the demon's retinue (he's not in a room just holding a pie...

The word, yes, but not the idea. Back then we called it "We only use book a,b,c, with a little of x,y, and z". And EGG is very well known for the soft sell... weren't you supposed to only use official hexagon paper, or you weren't truly playing AD&D? :p Turn the page to find "...everything...

It was optional because the added powers were presented in a non-core book that came out 8 years (not in '80, but in '85 or '86 IIRC) after the original official stats. Manual of the Planes added a lot of great stuff for the DM to use. Taking the demon princes out of the DM's stable of monsters...

Since Juiblex didn't have skill points, ability scores or feats in 1e, that would be difficult. So anyway... taking a monster and adding power to it in one system is not at all like taking a monster and adding power to it in another system? I begin to see where you're coming from. It was...

Isn't that sort of like advancing a monster? Straight out of the books, a 1e Type VI could hold its own against most of the princes, if they were allowed the capricious luxury of dice.

How do you know they're less powerful than balors? Just because they have a lower CR? If they all have power word kill balor, or whatever, how would that affect their CR, which is largely used to base how much of a challenge something is against average PCs? I'm not sure if Juiblex is going to...

Now the rules support your preferences. Buy the book for your DM.

If they weren't so cowardly, they'd step forward and defend themselves. :p J/K. I'm not singling anyone out. I'm assuming that such people exist, because I've talked to them both IRL and online. It seems like they had someone on the inside for most of the life of 2e.

It's easier to take something and make it tougher than it is to scale it down, under the current rules. Here's a secret for those that enjoy the DM's side of things: it's also pretty fun. ...and I'm not conceding anything. First off, that would be bad message-board form, and second, I think...

Perhaps that demon lord is weaker in tactical combat than a balor? Maybe CR doesn't rate comparative powers between monsters but general challenge when used for figuring XP? Or, maybe, just maybe, the already not-very-granular CR system breaks down at high levels and creatures with vastly...

Not true at all. 2nd edition came along and told us we were roleplayers, munchkings, etc. and childish for wanting to beat up these wonderful things that only game designers should be able to play with. I'm glad to see these critters moved closer to the default ceiling of power in D&D...

Nothing wrong with that at all. I've been DMing enough to wear out several armchairs. I was referring to those that never ever play, just read, and yet still insist on dictating how the stats should be presented, if at all. Back to the basic topic... presenting baseline monsters is good for the...

There is no need for the game to have a cohesive back story. That's what campaign settings and creative DMs are there for. Returning demon princes (and hopefully archdevils) to their kickable status is very far from the strawmen you present.

Condescend much?

Those are all great ideas to be used at the DM's discretion. Especially the random table one.

It's a good counter to the way 2e overpowered some of the best monsters in the game to the point where they were no longer useful... outside of the part of the game that takes place on a comfy armchair. They took the critters from those of us who play the game and gave them to the people who...

Taking your quote out of context here, sorry... but it seems to me that the issue is people are taking this Spelljammer/Planescape idea that everyone's campaign exists in some unified metacampaign way too far. These were marketing decisions made by TSR, and they have no place in the game. When...