Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Uder]

I've only popped in to state that I would love the chance, at the end of a 20th-level campaign, to travel down to the bottom of the Abyss and put a hurt on Orcus.

Now the rules support your preferences. Buy the book for your DM.

 

[Psion]

Right. So we don't disagree. Nobody disagrees, which is what makes this whole debate so preposterous. That is, nobody who's posted here thinks they should be less powerful than balors. Yet you - and a number of other people - act very critical and slighted when I point out that that's the case. I'm trying to inflict my subjective viewpoint on other gamers.

Now, now. We had not put a fine enough point on it to make that distinction until 2 posts ago - and then, I had to repeat to you last post. So let's not be pointing fingers.

Many critics in this debate have been harshly and sarcastically critical of the mere notion that demon lords be given baseline statistics in striking distance of 20. That's where I've been staking my tent.

But again, just because I would not have done it myself, it's not that I beleive that CR is significant enough an indicator that I think 1 less CR makes it implausible that a lord would rule over a balor.

But nobody disagrees with me. The best I've heard is maybe the Abyssal lords have all sorts of magical powers the books don't mention.

FWIW, Erik say that the book does say that:

The book mentions that demon lords control their layers more or less at will several times. The layers have the "divinely morphic" trait from the MotP, and for these purposes the demon princes who control a layer qualify as "divine."

Which resonates with my thoughts on what it means to be an abyssal lord. And sort of sweeps all this silly "why wouldn't a balor kill him" stuff aside.

 

[Uder]

Right. So we don't disagree. Nobody disagrees, which is what makes this whole debate so preposterous. That is, nobody who's posted here thinks they should be less powerful than balors.

How do you know they're less powerful than balors? Just because they have a lower CR?

If they all have power word kill balor, or whatever, how would that affect their CR, which is largely used to base how much of a challenge something is against average PCs?

I'm not sure if Juiblex is going to be less powerful than a balor, but even so, in 1e a Type VI could've taken Juiblex with a little sweat.

 

[Ripzerai]

Which resonates with my thoughts on what it means to be an abyssal lord. And sort of sweeps all this silly "why wouldn't a balor kill him" stuff aside.

If their control over their layers is great enough to prevent any demonic challenger from taking them on, it also prevents 20th level parties from doing the same thing.

Which sort of contradicts the whole point in making them CR 20 to begin with.

 

[Ripzerai]

If they all have power word kill balor, or whatever

That's a big 'if.' I'll reserve judgement for a later date when you aren't making stuff up.

in 1e a Type VI could've taken Juiblex with a little sweat.

Hardly. Not if Juiblex get all the lesser god powers the Manual of the Planes ascribed to it.

 

[Gold Roger]

If their control over their layers is great enough to prevent any demonic challenger from taking them on, it also prevents 20th level parties from doing the same thing.

Which sort of contradicts the whole point in making them CR 20 to begin with.

To fight them out of lair. This makes fighting a demon prince a true challenge to begin with, because you have to draw him out and then fight him in a way that neutralizes him permanently, so he can't simply reform.

 

[Uder]

That's a big 'if.' I'll reserve judgement for a later date when you aren't making stuff up.



Hardly. Not if Juiblex get all the lesser god powers the Manual of the Planes ascribed to it.

Isn't that sort of like advancing a monster?

Straight out of the books, a 1e Type VI could hold its own against most of the princes, if they were allowed the capricious luxury of dice.

 

[Ripzerai]

Isn't that sort of like advancing a monster?

Not at all. It doesn't require recalculating his skill points, ability scores, and feats, for one thing. Or his caster level or any of the other things hit dice might affect. It's just adding a bunch of spell-like abilities.

And it was official, not presented as an option.

 

[The Serge]

The book mentions that demon lords control their layers more or less at will several times. The layers have the "divinely morphic" trait from the MotP, and for these purposes the demon princes who control a layer qualify as "divine."

By the RAW, this means very little (and if it did, it would mean that the CRs are too low to begin with) without further explanation.

Without a clear indication of the demon lord/prince's "divine power," this control could mean something as minor as making it smell like odur all the time and giving everything a greenish tint. Big. Deal. At best, the demon prince can make it unbearably cold or unbearably hot... Which will not do anything to affect most true demons (balors, mariliths, et. al), much less rival demon lords or gods. The greatest extent of power, the ability to affect magic traits and travel into and out of the Astral Plane and so forth, all requires at least lesser god if not intermediate god power. Hell, a god could just cast Hand of Death and kill the demon prince without even having to enter its realm.

Now, let's assume that there's more to this than Mona is saying and that there are some clear guidelines. This begs two questions... Are the CRs of any value whatsoever with this in mind (NO) and why not just build them in a manner comparable to gods rather than just hand this paltry handmedown?

And getting back to this whole CR thing... While CR was never initially conceived as a comparison between two monsters, it is often a decent indicator of relative power. For example, a solar is both one of the strongest beings in the MM and possesses one of the highest CRs. It can take down virtually any creature with a lower CR (including a tarrasque) and the few creatures strong enough to defeat it possess higher CRs (pretty much just great wyrm dragons with the proper spell selection).

From an internal cosmology and consistency, it stands to reason that a demon lord would not only have a higher CR than a balor, but would also be stronger than the balor. It also stands to reason that if it has the ability to snub it nose at gods, its CR should somehow reflect this.

 

[Psion]

If their control over their layers is great enough to prevent any demonic challenger from taking them on, it also prevents 20th level parties from doing the same thing.

Which sort of contradicts the whole point in making them CR 20 to begin with.

Or not. It could represent an avatar. You could be running a jazzed up Dead Gods where the party will confront orcus and he's lost control of his layer. You could be running the fantasy equivalent of "the emperor has made a critical error and the time to strike is now."