Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Ripzerai]

By the RAW, this means very little (and if it did, it would mean that the CRs are too low to begin with)

He's right, you know. Unless control over a divinely morphic plane means Alter Reality at will, it's not that big of a deal.

Well, actually, if it has the powers a greater deity has in its realm, there are some interesting things you might have it do - localized reverse gravity or transforming the air into fire, perhaps, depending on whether or not it can fine-tune its power to affect small areas or whether it has to affect the whole layer at once.

And then it's not CR 20.

It could represent an avatar.

Well, yes. If it's just an avatar or aspect, there's not really a problem. The discussion assumes that the creature represents its true form.

You could be running a jazzed up Dead Gods where the party will confront orcus and he's lost control of his layer.

That could be interesting, although that would only make a great difference if the divinely morphic power is very dramatic, as above.

 

[Psion]

By the RAW, this means very little (and if it did, it would mean that the CRs are too low to begin with) without further explanation.

Huh?

You realize that "divinely morphic" quality is part of the standard planar characteristics which are in the RAW.

Admitedly, it's not too er, mechanically precise. But the verbage certainly doesn't make it sound negligible.

 

[Ripzerai]

Admitedly, it's not too er, mechanically precise. But the verbage certainly doesn't make it sound negligible.

Actually, it is fairly precise. And a lot of it depends on the demon's effective divine rank.

 

[The Serge]

Huh?

You realize that "divinely morphic" quality is part of the standard planar characteristics which are in the RAW.

Admitedly, it's not too er, mechanically precise. But the verbage certainly doesn't make it sound negligible.

And what precisely would this power grant that I didn't mention in my thread....? Will it defend them against gods? Other demonic interlopers? Balors?

 

[Psion]

Actually, it is fairly precise. And a lot of it depends on the demon's effective divine rank.

Good catch... I was only looking in the planes section.

There you go Serge... look at Rip's link.

As for it being "reflected in the CR" - no, because it only counts on their layer per the quoted text by Erik.

 

[The Serge]

Yeah, I was looking at this... In the DDG. It doesn't do squat for them in defending themselves against similarly powered creatures.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Now maybe we can get a version of Mask that will actually be scared of Kezef again!

Cool! A 10th-level Masks! I'm gonna kill me the god of Murder!

 

[Psion]

There is more to D&D than just the RAW. There is a mythology spread throughout the D&D rules that many enjoy following. Part of that mythology is demons as uber-villains. If the stats belie or call this into question, as they are part of the reading, that undercuts the mythology, particularly if there is no in game reason given for the change. The uber is no longer so uber and with no explaination within the game, even if there is a purely rules explaination. The end result is less pleasure in the mythology. The approach taken in depowering the demons as it has been thus far explained is rules centered and ignores what many find adds to the D&D experience as much - considering and interacting with the mythology in more than a casual way that considers only the RAW. To paraphrase, for me, "Its the mythology, stupid!"

The term I've seen for this is metasetting.

But the metasetting is not stable. Things like the "gith-gith-ith hate" triangle are pretty basic and consistent, but details vary. Like the aforementioned changes in the history and power of the Githyanki queen. There comes a time where, if you are plugging into the metasetting, you have to decide what's worth using in your game and what is not, and which of various contradictory versions apply.

 

[hong]

When githyanki hates githzerai and githzerai hates githyanki and both hate mindflayers, who hate them back, it is the D&D follow on to elves disliking dwarves, dwarves disliking elves and both hating orcs, who hate then back. I doubt anyone can reasonably say that fantasy is not richer for the latter and I posit D&D is richer for both.

There's nothing wrong with D&D that couldn't be solved by banning wizards.


Hong "and paladins" Ooi

 

[hong]

The term I've seen for this is metasetting.

I would now say that I've never metasetting I didn't like, but that would be a lie.